Steve

Hi DJ,

I don't have a TJ, but I do drive an old Cherokee (XJ) in the worst of
Canadian winter conditions. The XJ has same engine, t-case,
transmission, axles, steering, suspension, etc. as can be found in
Wranglers. The main difference is a longer wheel base.

My XJ has a 4.5" lift and 33" tires. Last winter I had the thing out
during a blizzard that dumped over three feet with 65 mph winds. Worked
like a champ.

I say go for the TJ, but get the long wheel base version:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/unlimited.html

It will be much more stable on icy roads than the shorter version. It
also has some nice options included such as a rear Dana 44 with LSD and
30" tires. Cherokees have an optional 'SelecTrac' full time 4wd that was
never offered in the Wranglers because of limited space due to the
shorter wheel base. Unlimited currently has only part time 4x4, but it
may come with the full-time next year. I have the part time 4x4. Full
time would be nice for mixed conditions, but it's really not necessary.
When you see a snow patch ahead, just pull the lever.

By the way, here's an ideal plow for driveways. Made in your neighborhood:

http://www.superplow.com/homeowners.html

If you really want to do it right, wait for the long wheel base Wrangler
Rubicon Unlimited due out in November. The short Rubicon has been
available for a few years:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/rubicon.html

It has 31" tires for even more clearance and 4.10 gears for lots of
pulling power. It has a gear driven limited slip in the rear that is
superior to the clutch-pad TracLoc in other models. In addition to the
rear LSD, both front and rear Dana 44s pneumatically lock up at the push
of a button for the ultimate in traction. It has a part time transfer
case with a whopping 4:1 low range ratio for super slow off-road
crawling. Add the long wheel base with extra cargo area and you have
your snow bashing, trail riding, go anywhere family convertible. Your
kids will never want to ride in the minivan again and you'll wonder why
it took you so long to get a Jeep.

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


DJ wrote:
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.

Steve

Hi DJ,

I don't have a TJ, but I do drive an old Cherokee (XJ) in the worst of
Canadian winter conditions. The XJ has same engine, t-case,
transmission, axles, steering, suspension, etc. as can be found in
Wranglers. The main difference is a longer wheel base.

My XJ has a 4.5" lift and 33" tires. Last winter I had the thing out
during a blizzard that dumped over three feet with 65 mph winds. Worked
like a champ.

I say go for the TJ, but get the long wheel base version:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/unlimited.html

It will be much more stable on icy roads than the shorter version. It
also has some nice options included such as a rear Dana 44 with LSD and
30" tires. Cherokees have an optional 'SelecTrac' full time 4wd that was
never offered in the Wranglers because of limited space due to the
shorter wheel base. Unlimited currently has only part time 4x4, but it
may come with the full-time next year. I have the part time 4x4. Full
time would be nice for mixed conditions, but it's really not necessary.
When you see a snow patch ahead, just pull the lever.

By the way, here's an ideal plow for driveways. Made in your neighborhood:

http://www.superplow.com/homeowners.html

If you really want to do it right, wait for the long wheel base Wrangler
Rubicon Unlimited due out in November. The short Rubicon has been
available for a few years:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/rubicon.html

It has 31" tires for even more clearance and 4.10 gears for lots of
pulling power. It has a gear driven limited slip in the rear that is
superior to the clutch-pad TracLoc in other models. In addition to the
rear LSD, both front and rear Dana 44s pneumatically lock up at the push
of a button for the ultimate in traction. It has a part time transfer
case with a whopping 4:1 low range ratio for super slow off-road
crawling. Add the long wheel base with extra cargo area and you have
your snow bashing, trail riding, go anywhere family convertible. Your
kids will never want to ride in the minivan again and you'll wonder why
it took you so long to get a Jeep.

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


DJ wrote:
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.

Steve

Hi DJ,

I don't have a TJ, but I do drive an old Cherokee (XJ) in the worst of
Canadian winter conditions. The XJ has same engine, t-case,
transmission, axles, steering, suspension, etc. as can be found in
Wranglers. The main difference is a longer wheel base.

My XJ has a 4.5" lift and 33" tires. Last winter I had the thing out
during a blizzard that dumped over three feet with 65 mph winds. Worked
like a champ.

I say go for the TJ, but get the long wheel base version:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/unlimited.html

It will be much more stable on icy roads than the shorter version. It
also has some nice options included such as a rear Dana 44 with LSD and
30" tires. Cherokees have an optional 'SelecTrac' full time 4wd that was
never offered in the Wranglers because of limited space due to the
shorter wheel base. Unlimited currently has only part time 4x4, but it
may come with the full-time next year. I have the part time 4x4. Full
time would be nice for mixed conditions, but it's really not necessary.
When you see a snow patch ahead, just pull the lever.

By the way, here's an ideal plow for driveways. Made in your neighborhood:

http://www.superplow.com/homeowners.html

If you really want to do it right, wait for the long wheel base Wrangler
Rubicon Unlimited due out in November. The short Rubicon has been
available for a few years:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/rubicon.html

It has 31" tires for even more clearance and 4.10 gears for lots of
pulling power. It has a gear driven limited slip in the rear that is
superior to the clutch-pad TracLoc in other models. In addition to the
rear LSD, both front and rear Dana 44s pneumatically lock up at the push
of a button for the ultimate in traction. It has a part time transfer
case with a whopping 4:1 low range ratio for super slow off-road
crawling. Add the long wheel base with extra cargo area and you have
your snow bashing, trail riding, go anywhere family convertible. Your
kids will never want to ride in the minivan again and you'll wonder why
it took you so long to get a Jeep.

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


DJ wrote:
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.

Matt

Every year, my wife and I take my '99 TJ Sport from DC area to
Michigan, then across Ontario to my folks' house in Cortland. I've got
31's on it (muds) and never had a problem. We rented a small Japanese
car of some sort a few years back and got stuck in western NY, so now
we use the TJ. It's unstoppable, even in good-size drifts. Loud on
road trips, though :)
I'd definitely go with the TJ. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with the
hard top, either. Even in the winter there it stays warm enough
inside. The new soft tops after '95 rule.

Matt



psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Every year, my wife and I take my '99 TJ Sport from DC area to
Michigan, then across Ontario to my folks' house in Cortland. I've got
31's on it (muds) and never had a problem. We rented a small Japanese
car of some sort a few years back and got stuck in western NY, so now
we use the TJ. It's unstoppable, even in good-size drifts. Loud on
road trips, though :)
I'd definitely go with the TJ. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with the
hard top, either. Even in the winter there it stays warm enough
inside. The new soft tops after '95 rule.

Matt



psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Every year, my wife and I take my '99 TJ Sport from DC area to
Michigan, then across Ontario to my folks' house in Cortland. I've got
31's on it (muds) and never had a problem. We rented a small Japanese
car of some sort a few years back and got stuck in western NY, so now
we use the TJ. It's unstoppable, even in good-size drifts. Loud on
road trips, though :)
I'd definitely go with the TJ. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with the
hard top, either. Even in the winter there it stays warm enough
inside. The new soft tops after '95 rule.

Matt



psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Every year, my wife and I take my '99 TJ Sport from DC area to
Michigan, then across Ontario to my folks' house in Cortland. I've got
31's on it (muds) and never had a problem. We rented a small Japanese
car of some sort a few years back and got stuck in western NY, so now
we use the TJ. It's unstoppable, even in good-size drifts. Loud on
road trips, though :)
I'd definitely go with the TJ. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with the
hard top, either. Even in the winter there it stays warm enough
inside. The new soft tops after '95 rule.

Matt



psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Forgot to mention, we take the Jeep on that huge trip at CHRISTMAS.


Matt


psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Forgot to mention, we take the Jeep on that huge trip at CHRISTMAS.


Matt


psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Matt

Forgot to mention, we take the Jeep on that huge trip at CHRISTMAS.


Matt


psychonomic@hotmail.com (DJ) wrote in message news:<51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google. com>...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other?
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting
> issues? I just don't want that much truck)