HarryS

Get a horse at least you will have a convertible, 4x4, and fertilizer for
the lawn, it's environmentally friendly and I would not have to read your
alot to say about nothing.

--
HarryS
"DJ" <psychonomic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google.c om...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids - can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other.
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow - No more drifting
> issues. I just don't want that much truck)

SB

LSD in the rear? Was that an option? I'd take Weed in the seat if I could!
har har har


"DJ" <psychonomic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google.c om...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids - can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other.
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow - No more drifting
> issues. I just don't want that much truck)

SB

LSD in the rear? Was that an option? I'd take Weed in the seat if I could!
har har har


"DJ" <psychonomic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google.c om...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids - can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other.
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow - No more drifting
> issues. I just don't want that much truck)

SB

LSD in the rear? Was that an option? I'd take Weed in the seat if I could!
har har har


"DJ" <psychonomic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google.c om...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids - can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other.
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow - No more drifting
> issues. I just don't want that much truck)

SB

LSD in the rear? Was that an option? I'd take Weed in the seat if I could!
har har har


"DJ" <psychonomic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51eaac29.0407291248.4c57673b@posting.google.c om...
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.
>
>
> Background:
>
> I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair
> amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top
> of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150
> foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing
> significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90
> minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically
> a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C
> Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids - can ya tell?).
>
> The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me
> alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the
> minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles)
> and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have
> to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather,
> and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.
>
> There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one:
> the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the
> rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY
> different from each other.
>
> My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
> the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
> the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in
> trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats"
> on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the
> frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I
> admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it
> does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground
> clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a
> blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep),
> there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
> as anything in the summer.
>
> Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between
> the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and
> the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
> explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
> to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of
> "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other
> hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and
> that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies
> before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:
>
> How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
> to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback
> chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off
> from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about
> the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the
> snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the
> clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down,
> but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with
> this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.
>
> How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
> systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
> before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
> drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
> until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to
> under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
> get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
> I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
> scary way?
>
> Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
> heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
> could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
> things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the
> electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP!
> However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the
> shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to
> 10 years.
>
> I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning
> on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest
> 4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't
> "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go
> into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the
> practical needs I have.
>
> Thank you in advance for any help!
>
> DJ
>
> (P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow - No more drifting
> issues. I just don't want that much truck)

Dean

<Snippage>

>My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
>the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
>the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over,

<snip>

How deep are the drifts vs the ground clearance of the Jeep? The TJ is very
good in the snow, but it will get stuck just like any other vehicle if you start
pushing snow with the under carriage. (I learned this the hard way, and trust
me if you have to be pulled out of a drift by your wife's mini van, you will
NEVER live that down <lol>) The advantage of the TJ is you can put a lift on
that will get you pretty much get you over every thing. If my lifted TJ can't
drive through it then you need a snowmobile any way.

<snip>

>there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
>as anything in the summer.

<snip>

> I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
>explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
>to serve my day-to-day driving needs.

Top down on the TJ is a lot of fun, but driving a Jeep is not the same as
driving a sports car. They pretty much suck when it comes to handling. And
the TJ gets lousy gas milage. On a good day mine gets 15 mpg. Daily driving is
certainly possible, I did it for 40,000+ miles.

<snip>

>Having owned Subbies before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ?

The second worst car I have ever owned was a Subaru, so your milage with the TJ
will vary. Mine has been pretty good, given where I drive it. Others have had
nothing by trouble with them. The six cylinder engine is bullet proof and with
proper care it will go 200,000+ miles.

>How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
>to still be able to make it through?

It depends on your driving skill. If you want to just drive through the snow
like it isn't there you can do that as long as the snow is one or two inches
higher than the TJ's ground clearance. Deep snow drifts require a different
technique. I like to punch through those with several attacks and retreats.
And in the worst case buy a winch and pull yourself through the drift.

<snip>

>How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
>systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
>before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
>drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
>until you are already on slippery surfaces.

I've drove my TJ as a daily driver for 3 years, in every kind of weather. In
the snow it does fine as long as you remember you are driving a short wheel
based, rear wheel drive vehicle. Putting it into 4 hi is as simple as reaching
down and pulling the lever. In patchy road conditions I'll shift into and out
of 4wd many times depending upon the road.

>The subbie tends to
>under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
>get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
>I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
>scary way?

Under-steer? Over-steer? Forget these terms if you drive a Jeep. Think tall,
tippy, and sluggish. Yes, if you goose it in the snow in 2wd it will
over-steer, just like any rwd vehicle. Put it into 4wd and goose it and the
circle only gets bigger. On the road remember - short wheel base, rwd and you
will be fine. Forget that and you will be in the ditch.

>Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
>heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
>could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
>things?

Yup, I missed those things so much that when the chance came to use a car as a
daily driver I jumped at the chance. My TJ is now my toy. It comes out to tool
around town with the top off, or to go on some fairly serious 4wd trails. On a
daily basis I drive a 13 year old Honda Accord. I call it my transportation
appliance. I have about as much feeling for the Honda as I have for my toaster.
But just like my toaster it has a job to do, in this case get me back and forth
from work reliably and in comfort. On bad snow days I'll get the TJ out.

<snip>

>(P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow – No more drifting
>issues… I just don't want that much truck)

If more that one vehicle is an option, maybe you should consider an older 4wd
for those snowy days and a Subaru for every day driving.

Dean

Dean

<Snippage>

>My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
>the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
>the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over,

<snip>

How deep are the drifts vs the ground clearance of the Jeep? The TJ is very
good in the snow, but it will get stuck just like any other vehicle if you start
pushing snow with the under carriage. (I learned this the hard way, and trust
me if you have to be pulled out of a drift by your wife's mini van, you will
NEVER live that down <lol>) The advantage of the TJ is you can put a lift on
that will get you pretty much get you over every thing. If my lifted TJ can't
drive through it then you need a snowmobile any way.

<snip>

>there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
>as anything in the summer.

<snip>

> I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
>explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
>to serve my day-to-day driving needs.

Top down on the TJ is a lot of fun, but driving a Jeep is not the same as
driving a sports car. They pretty much suck when it comes to handling. And
the TJ gets lousy gas milage. On a good day mine gets 15 mpg. Daily driving is
certainly possible, I did it for 40,000+ miles.

<snip>

>Having owned Subbies before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ?

The second worst car I have ever owned was a Subaru, so your milage with the TJ
will vary. Mine has been pretty good, given where I drive it. Others have had
nothing by trouble with them. The six cylinder engine is bullet proof and with
proper care it will go 200,000+ miles.

>How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
>to still be able to make it through?

It depends on your driving skill. If you want to just drive through the snow
like it isn't there you can do that as long as the snow is one or two inches
higher than the TJ's ground clearance. Deep snow drifts require a different
technique. I like to punch through those with several attacks and retreats.
And in the worst case buy a winch and pull yourself through the drift.

<snip>

>How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
>systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
>before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
>drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
>until you are already on slippery surfaces.

I've drove my TJ as a daily driver for 3 years, in every kind of weather. In
the snow it does fine as long as you remember you are driving a short wheel
based, rear wheel drive vehicle. Putting it into 4 hi is as simple as reaching
down and pulling the lever. In patchy road conditions I'll shift into and out
of 4wd many times depending upon the road.

>The subbie tends to
>under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
>get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
>I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
>scary way?

Under-steer? Over-steer? Forget these terms if you drive a Jeep. Think tall,
tippy, and sluggish. Yes, if you goose it in the snow in 2wd it will
over-steer, just like any rwd vehicle. Put it into 4wd and goose it and the
circle only gets bigger. On the road remember - short wheel base, rwd and you
will be fine. Forget that and you will be in the ditch.

>Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
>heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
>could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
>things?

Yup, I missed those things so much that when the chance came to use a car as a
daily driver I jumped at the chance. My TJ is now my toy. It comes out to tool
around town with the top off, or to go on some fairly serious 4wd trails. On a
daily basis I drive a 13 year old Honda Accord. I call it my transportation
appliance. I have about as much feeling for the Honda as I have for my toaster.
But just like my toaster it has a job to do, in this case get me back and forth
from work reliably and in comfort. On bad snow days I'll get the TJ out.

<snip>

>(P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow – No more drifting
>issues… I just don't want that much truck)

If more that one vehicle is an option, maybe you should consider an older 4wd
for those snowy days and a Subaru for every day driving.

Dean

Dean

<Snippage>

>My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
>the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
>the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over,

<snip>

How deep are the drifts vs the ground clearance of the Jeep? The TJ is very
good in the snow, but it will get stuck just like any other vehicle if you start
pushing snow with the under carriage. (I learned this the hard way, and trust
me if you have to be pulled out of a drift by your wife's mini van, you will
NEVER live that down <lol>) The advantage of the TJ is you can put a lift on
that will get you pretty much get you over every thing. If my lifted TJ can't
drive through it then you need a snowmobile any way.

<snip>

>there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
>as anything in the summer.

<snip>

> I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
>explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
>to serve my day-to-day driving needs.

Top down on the TJ is a lot of fun, but driving a Jeep is not the same as
driving a sports car. They pretty much suck when it comes to handling. And
the TJ gets lousy gas milage. On a good day mine gets 15 mpg. Daily driving is
certainly possible, I did it for 40,000+ miles.

<snip>

>Having owned Subbies before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ?

The second worst car I have ever owned was a Subaru, so your milage with the TJ
will vary. Mine has been pretty good, given where I drive it. Others have had
nothing by trouble with them. The six cylinder engine is bullet proof and with
proper care it will go 200,000+ miles.

>How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
>to still be able to make it through?

It depends on your driving skill. If you want to just drive through the snow
like it isn't there you can do that as long as the snow is one or two inches
higher than the TJ's ground clearance. Deep snow drifts require a different
technique. I like to punch through those with several attacks and retreats.
And in the worst case buy a winch and pull yourself through the drift.

<snip>

>How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
>systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
>before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
>drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
>until you are already on slippery surfaces.

I've drove my TJ as a daily driver for 3 years, in every kind of weather. In
the snow it does fine as long as you remember you are driving a short wheel
based, rear wheel drive vehicle. Putting it into 4 hi is as simple as reaching
down and pulling the lever. In patchy road conditions I'll shift into and out
of 4wd many times depending upon the road.

>The subbie tends to
>under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
>get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
>I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
>scary way?

Under-steer? Over-steer? Forget these terms if you drive a Jeep. Think tall,
tippy, and sluggish. Yes, if you goose it in the snow in 2wd it will
over-steer, just like any rwd vehicle. Put it into 4wd and goose it and the
circle only gets bigger. On the road remember - short wheel base, rwd and you
will be fine. Forget that and you will be in the ditch.

>Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
>heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
>could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
>things?

Yup, I missed those things so much that when the chance came to use a car as a
daily driver I jumped at the chance. My TJ is now my toy. It comes out to tool
around town with the top off, or to go on some fairly serious 4wd trails. On a
daily basis I drive a 13 year old Honda Accord. I call it my transportation
appliance. I have about as much feeling for the Honda as I have for my toaster.
But just like my toaster it has a job to do, in this case get me back and forth
from work reliably and in comfort. On bad snow days I'll get the TJ out.

<snip>

>(P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow – No more drifting
>issues… I just don't want that much truck)

If more that one vehicle is an option, maybe you should consider an older 4wd
for those snowy days and a Subaru for every day driving.

Dean

Dean

<Snippage>

>My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in
>the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to
>the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over,

<snip>

How deep are the drifts vs the ground clearance of the Jeep? The TJ is very
good in the snow, but it will get stuck just like any other vehicle if you start
pushing snow with the under carriage. (I learned this the hard way, and trust
me if you have to be pulled out of a drift by your wife's mini van, you will
NEVER live that down <lol>) The advantage of the TJ is you can put a lift on
that will get you pretty much get you over every thing. If my lifted TJ can't
drive through it then you need a snowmobile any way.

<snip>

>there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring
>as anything in the summer.

<snip>

> I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite
>explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has
>to serve my day-to-day driving needs.

Top down on the TJ is a lot of fun, but driving a Jeep is not the same as
driving a sports car. They pretty much suck when it comes to handling. And
the TJ gets lousy gas milage. On a good day mine gets 15 mpg. Daily driving is
certainly possible, I did it for 40,000+ miles.

<snip>

>Having owned Subbies before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ?

The second worst car I have ever owned was a Subaru, so your milage with the TJ
will vary. Mine has been pretty good, given where I drive it. Others have had
nothing by trouble with them. The six cylinder engine is bullet proof and with
proper care it will go 200,000+ miles.

>How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course)
>to still be able to make it through?

It depends on your driving skill. If you want to just drive through the snow
like it isn't there you can do that as long as the snow is one or two inches
higher than the TJ's ground clearance. Deep snow drifts require a different
technique. I like to punch through those with several attacks and retreats.
And in the worst case buy a winch and pull yourself through the drift.

<snip>

>How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD
>systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4
>before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel
>drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do
>until you are already on slippery surfaces.

I've drove my TJ as a daily driver for 3 years, in every kind of weather. In
the snow it does fine as long as you remember you are driving a short wheel
based, rear wheel drive vehicle. Putting it into 4 hi is as simple as reaching
down and pulling the lever. In patchy road conditions I'll shift into and out
of 4wd many times depending upon the road.

>The subbie tends to
>under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to
>get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am
>I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or
>scary way?

Under-steer? Over-steer? Forget these terms if you drive a Jeep. Think tall,
tippy, and sluggish. Yes, if you goose it in the snow in 2wd it will
over-steer, just like any rwd vehicle. Put it into 4wd and goose it and the
circle only gets bigger. On the road remember - short wheel base, rwd and you
will be fine. Forget that and you will be in the ditch.

>Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the
>heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and
>could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these
>things?

Yup, I missed those things so much that when the chance came to use a car as a
daily driver I jumped at the chance. My TJ is now my toy. It comes out to tool
around town with the top off, or to go on some fairly serious 4wd trails. On a
daily basis I drive a 13 year old Honda Accord. I call it my transportation
appliance. I have about as much feeling for the Honda as I have for my toaster.
But just like my toaster it has a job to do, in this case get me back and forth
from work reliably and in comfort. On bad snow days I'll get the TJ out.

<snip>

>(P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow – No more drifting
>issues… I just don't want that much truck)

If more that one vehicle is an option, maybe you should consider an older 4wd
for those snowy days and a Subaru for every day driving.

Dean

Steve

Hi DJ,

I don't have a TJ, but I do drive an old Cherokee (XJ) in the worst of
Canadian winter conditions. The XJ has same engine, t-case,
transmission, axles, steering, suspension, etc. as can be found in
Wranglers. The main difference is a longer wheel base.

My XJ has a 4.5" lift and 33" tires. Last winter I had the thing out
during a blizzard that dumped over three feet with 65 mph winds. Worked
like a champ.

I say go for the TJ, but get the long wheel base version:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/unlimited.html

It will be much more stable on icy roads than the shorter version. It
also has some nice options included such as a rear Dana 44 with LSD and
30" tires. Cherokees have an optional 'SelecTrac' full time 4wd that was
never offered in the Wranglers because of limited space due to the
shorter wheel base. Unlimited currently has only part time 4x4, but it
may come with the full-time next year. I have the part time 4x4. Full
time would be nice for mixed conditions, but it's really not necessary.
When you see a snow patch ahead, just pull the lever.

By the way, here's an ideal plow for driveways. Made in your neighborhood:

http://www.superplow.com/homeowners.html

If you really want to do it right, wait for the long wheel base Wrangler
Rubicon Unlimited due out in November. The short Rubicon has been
available for a few years:

http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/rubicon.html

It has 31" tires for even more clearance and 4.10 gears for lots of
pulling power. It has a gear driven limited slip in the rear that is
superior to the clutch-pad TracLoc in other models. In addition to the
rear LSD, both front and rear Dana 44s pneumatically lock up at the push
of a button for the ultimate in traction. It has a part time transfer
case with a whopping 4:1 low range ratio for super slow off-road
crawling. Add the long wheel base with extra cargo area and you have
your snow bashing, trail riding, go anywhere family convertible. Your
kids will never want to ride in the minivan again and you'll wonder why
it took you so long to get a Jeep.

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


DJ wrote:
> Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some
> feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an
> area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will
> be much appreciated.