Mark

Deano wrote:
> . . . surely someone with enough water can WALK a few miles to a road with
> more traffic on it, no?

You would think so, a tantalizing idea, but very risky. Summer temps
in the desert are brutal. A father and son died in Anza Borrego two
years ago when trying to walk out (with carried water) from a disabled
vehicle, only a couple of miles. Dead border crossers number in the
hundreds each year. Walking in the heat of the day, even with adequate
water, could result in heat stroke. If you're walking, you're not in
the shade, you're transpiring greater amounts of water than you can
carry for a day, and you're heating up. Walking in the heat of the
day, even with adequate water, could result in heat stroke, which is
fatal if not taken care of quickly. And if you start having symptoms,
you're screwed, you're half way between the safety of your vehicle and
the assumed help you'll find at the road.

Much better is to stay with the vehicle and your 5+ gallons of water,
in the shade, relaxing and staying cool. OTOH, if a travelled road was
only a mile or less away, I might make a run for it, but only after my
water supply was running out, chance of rescue becoming slim, and only
in early morning, or pre-dawn if the moon's out.

Just try it for a wakeup call. Do a little hiking (with
air-conditioned indoors nearby) in 120 degree weather, in proper
clothing and with adequate water. It's amazing how quickly the first
signs of heat exhaustion (precursor to heat stroke) appear,
and how little progress you can make after a while.

Lon

Mark proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>>Mark proclaimed:
>>
>>>Really? Stuck rig is a death sentence in hot weather? How about just
>>>sittin' it out for a few days (assuming you have lots of water) . . .
>>>
>>
>>Sitting inside a vehicle in the desert will literally bake you. As for
>>passersby, those tend to be measured in millicoyotes per millenium. And
>>if you get way out of the typical tracks in a canyon somewhere, rescuers
>>could be within half a mile of you and you'd be lucky to know it.
>
>
> I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
> finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
> business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
> alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
> staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.

Well, if you have any bright ideas on where one might find shade in
Death Valley, you're doing better than folks who have been there and
observed that there isn't a hell of a lot, and when the true shade air
temperature is 120 to 130 degrees [130 is somehat unusual, 120+ has been
known to happen for over a month worth of consecutive days] the shade
really doesn't do you a lot of good. Then you discover the humidity and
just how much moisture a human body can lose just breathing ultra dry
air at 120 degrees.

As for staying on "popular trails" and expecting passersby, I can now
pretty much conclude you've never been within thousands of miles of the
nevada area where only the freeway or highway 95 or 395 tends to have
those. Get west of Beatty much and the concept of passersby is a bit
optimistic.
>
> Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
> forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
> excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
> it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
> signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
> kit; become as visible as possible.

Oddly enough the desert is NOT open, but if you'd care to go out there
by youself with all of your confidence, go ahead.

A mirror? Sure. But if you are trying to signal air craft, the one
pre-requisite is that there be some flying over at low enough altitude
to see you. Or that you haven't already literally baked your brain
enough you don't mistake the air craft for a buzzard or flying dinosaur.



>
> You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
> a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
> just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
> experience.
>

You have apparently never been there. Be my guest.

Lon

Mark proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>>Mark proclaimed:
>>
>>>Really? Stuck rig is a death sentence in hot weather? How about just
>>>sittin' it out for a few days (assuming you have lots of water) . . .
>>>
>>
>>Sitting inside a vehicle in the desert will literally bake you. As for
>>passersby, those tend to be measured in millicoyotes per millenium. And
>>if you get way out of the typical tracks in a canyon somewhere, rescuers
>>could be within half a mile of you and you'd be lucky to know it.
>
>
> I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
> finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
> business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
> alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
> staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.

Well, if you have any bright ideas on where one might find shade in
Death Valley, you're doing better than folks who have been there and
observed that there isn't a hell of a lot, and when the true shade air
temperature is 120 to 130 degrees [130 is somehat unusual, 120+ has been
known to happen for over a month worth of consecutive days] the shade
really doesn't do you a lot of good. Then you discover the humidity and
just how much moisture a human body can lose just breathing ultra dry
air at 120 degrees.

As for staying on "popular trails" and expecting passersby, I can now
pretty much conclude you've never been within thousands of miles of the
nevada area where only the freeway or highway 95 or 395 tends to have
those. Get west of Beatty much and the concept of passersby is a bit
optimistic.
>
> Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
> forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
> excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
> it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
> signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
> kit; become as visible as possible.

Oddly enough the desert is NOT open, but if you'd care to go out there
by youself with all of your confidence, go ahead.

A mirror? Sure. But if you are trying to signal air craft, the one
pre-requisite is that there be some flying over at low enough altitude
to see you. Or that you haven't already literally baked your brain
enough you don't mistake the air craft for a buzzard or flying dinosaur.



>
> You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
> a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
> just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
> experience.
>

You have apparently never been there. Be my guest.

Lon

Mark proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>>Mark proclaimed:
>>
>>>Really? Stuck rig is a death sentence in hot weather? How about just
>>>sittin' it out for a few days (assuming you have lots of water) . . .
>>>
>>
>>Sitting inside a vehicle in the desert will literally bake you. As for
>>passersby, those tend to be measured in millicoyotes per millenium. And
>>if you get way out of the typical tracks in a canyon somewhere, rescuers
>>could be within half a mile of you and you'd be lucky to know it.
>
>
> I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
> finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
> business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
> alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
> staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.

Well, if you have any bright ideas on where one might find shade in
Death Valley, you're doing better than folks who have been there and
observed that there isn't a hell of a lot, and when the true shade air
temperature is 120 to 130 degrees [130 is somehat unusual, 120+ has been
known to happen for over a month worth of consecutive days] the shade
really doesn't do you a lot of good. Then you discover the humidity and
just how much moisture a human body can lose just breathing ultra dry
air at 120 degrees.

As for staying on "popular trails" and expecting passersby, I can now
pretty much conclude you've never been within thousands of miles of the
nevada area where only the freeway or highway 95 or 395 tends to have
those. Get west of Beatty much and the concept of passersby is a bit
optimistic.
>
> Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
> forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
> excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
> it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
> signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
> kit; become as visible as possible.

Oddly enough the desert is NOT open, but if you'd care to go out there
by youself with all of your confidence, go ahead.

A mirror? Sure. But if you are trying to signal air craft, the one
pre-requisite is that there be some flying over at low enough altitude
to see you. Or that you haven't already literally baked your brain
enough you don't mistake the air craft for a buzzard or flying dinosaur.



>
> You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
> a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
> just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
> experience.
>

You have apparently never been there. Be my guest.

Lon

I'd be willing to bet money not even on the one freeway across the
southern portion... or never looked out the window enough to realize
just how much up and down terrain there is or how many roads, other
vehicles, or air craft there aren't. Either that or been there and
wandered a bit too far west or north in the Mojave and got hit by a
sonic boom from some flyboy.

L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the summer time?
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mark wrote:
>
>>I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
>>finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
>>business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
>>alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
>>staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.
>>
>>Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
>>forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
>>excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
>>it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
>>signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
>>kit; become as visible as possible.
>>
>>You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
>>a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
>>just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
>>experience.

Lon

I'd be willing to bet money not even on the one freeway across the
southern portion... or never looked out the window enough to realize
just how much up and down terrain there is or how many roads, other
vehicles, or air craft there aren't. Either that or been there and
wandered a bit too far west or north in the Mojave and got hit by a
sonic boom from some flyboy.

L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the summer time?
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mark wrote:
>
>>I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
>>finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
>>business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
>>alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
>>staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.
>>
>>Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
>>forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
>>excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
>>it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
>>signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
>>kit; become as visible as possible.
>>
>>You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
>>a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
>>just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
>>experience.

Lon

I'd be willing to bet money not even on the one freeway across the
southern portion... or never looked out the window enough to realize
just how much up and down terrain there is or how many roads, other
vehicles, or air craft there aren't. Either that or been there and
wandered a bit too far west or north in the Mojave and got hit by a
sonic boom from some flyboy.

L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the summer time?
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mark wrote:
>
>>I might suggest exiting your vehicle using the *door* feature and
>>finding (or creating) a shady spot should be the first order of
>>business. And getting "way out of the typical tracks in a canyon"
>>alone without being specific in your trip plan is asking for trouble;
>>staying on popular trails means passersby is a real possibility.
>>
>>Concerning rescuers, you're thinking two dimensionally. Unlike
>>forested terrain, the desert is open and visibility is usually
>>excellent, rescuers could be a half a mile *above* you, and you'd know
>>it by seeing and hearing their CAP airplane. Forgot to mention a
>>signal mirror and international orange tarp should be in your emergency
>>kit; become as visible as possible.
>>
>>You and Bill (bless his heart) are setting up a strawman, I don't deny
>>a complete nitwit is at risk of dying in a stuck vehicle incident, I'm
>>just saying that a modicum of common sense reduces it to an unpleasant
>>experience.

Lon

There are folks who run in death valley. Very unusual that at least a
couple of the runners don't need to be picked up and hospitalized. And
every now and then one gets taken out in a body bag. As for carrying
enough water to walk on a road in Death Valley, you have to be pretty
large to carry that much water. And if you have any desert savvy at all
you walk OFF the road because the temperature over a dark paved road is
high enough to kill you during most of the summer. The lighter colored
desert dirt will usually measure well over 150 degrees when the air
temperature is in the 120's. As for finding a road with more traffic,
your first problem is finding a road in Death Valley. The second one is
if you've ever actually been in back country in Nevada, including death
valley and counted the number of vehicles. Or tried to walk very far
when the free air temperature in the shade is 120 to 130.

It can be done, but the odds of it being done by someone who thinks they
know what they are doing...but doesn't, are worse than the crap tables.
Really not restricted to Death Valley, pretty much the entire area
from the eastern slopes of the Sierras to the western slopes of the
Rockies has areas where you could be 20-30 miles from a good sized town
and end up dead if your mouth is faster than your brain. Lose a few
overconfident folks out there every year.

Deano proclaimed:

> I was intriqued by this thread (but have NO experience in the desert)
>
> However... you would think if these guys and girls can RACE 135 miles
> through death valley in the summertime (masochistic tendencies aside),
> surely someone with enough water can WALK a few miles to a road with
> more traffic on it, no?
>
> http://www.runningonthesun.org/r-mission.htm
>
>
> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>>When I see something wrong I'm going to jump in there and correct
>>them! I've lived in Southern California all my life, and I can tell you,
>>you will die in our deserts during the summer time, even if you believe
>>you are totally prepared for every possible problem. The best way is to
>>postpone that trip to Los Wages, for weather that will allow the
>>changing of a tire before you go into heat stroke.
>> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the good old summer time?
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>>Chris wrote:
>>
>>>This thread is starting to take on a life of its own, maybe even
>>>entertaining.
>
>

Lon

There are folks who run in death valley. Very unusual that at least a
couple of the runners don't need to be picked up and hospitalized. And
every now and then one gets taken out in a body bag. As for carrying
enough water to walk on a road in Death Valley, you have to be pretty
large to carry that much water. And if you have any desert savvy at all
you walk OFF the road because the temperature over a dark paved road is
high enough to kill you during most of the summer. The lighter colored
desert dirt will usually measure well over 150 degrees when the air
temperature is in the 120's. As for finding a road with more traffic,
your first problem is finding a road in Death Valley. The second one is
if you've ever actually been in back country in Nevada, including death
valley and counted the number of vehicles. Or tried to walk very far
when the free air temperature in the shade is 120 to 130.

It can be done, but the odds of it being done by someone who thinks they
know what they are doing...but doesn't, are worse than the crap tables.
Really not restricted to Death Valley, pretty much the entire area
from the eastern slopes of the Sierras to the western slopes of the
Rockies has areas where you could be 20-30 miles from a good sized town
and end up dead if your mouth is faster than your brain. Lose a few
overconfident folks out there every year.

Deano proclaimed:

> I was intriqued by this thread (but have NO experience in the desert)
>
> However... you would think if these guys and girls can RACE 135 miles
> through death valley in the summertime (masochistic tendencies aside),
> surely someone with enough water can WALK a few miles to a road with
> more traffic on it, no?
>
> http://www.runningonthesun.org/r-mission.htm
>
>
> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>>When I see something wrong I'm going to jump in there and correct
>>them! I've lived in Southern California all my life, and I can tell you,
>>you will die in our deserts during the summer time, even if you believe
>>you are totally prepared for every possible problem. The best way is to
>>postpone that trip to Los Wages, for weather that will allow the
>>changing of a tire before you go into heat stroke.
>> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the good old summer time?
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>>Chris wrote:
>>
>>>This thread is starting to take on a life of its own, maybe even
>>>entertaining.
>
>

Lon

There are folks who run in death valley. Very unusual that at least a
couple of the runners don't need to be picked up and hospitalized. And
every now and then one gets taken out in a body bag. As for carrying
enough water to walk on a road in Death Valley, you have to be pretty
large to carry that much water. And if you have any desert savvy at all
you walk OFF the road because the temperature over a dark paved road is
high enough to kill you during most of the summer. The lighter colored
desert dirt will usually measure well over 150 degrees when the air
temperature is in the 120's. As for finding a road with more traffic,
your first problem is finding a road in Death Valley. The second one is
if you've ever actually been in back country in Nevada, including death
valley and counted the number of vehicles. Or tried to walk very far
when the free air temperature in the shade is 120 to 130.

It can be done, but the odds of it being done by someone who thinks they
know what they are doing...but doesn't, are worse than the crap tables.
Really not restricted to Death Valley, pretty much the entire area
from the eastern slopes of the Sierras to the western slopes of the
Rockies has areas where you could be 20-30 miles from a good sized town
and end up dead if your mouth is faster than your brain. Lose a few
overconfident folks out there every year.

Deano proclaimed:

> I was intriqued by this thread (but have NO experience in the desert)
>
> However... you would think if these guys and girls can RACE 135 miles
> through death valley in the summertime (masochistic tendencies aside),
> surely someone with enough water can WALK a few miles to a road with
> more traffic on it, no?
>
> http://www.runningonthesun.org/r-mission.htm
>
>
> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>>When I see something wrong I'm going to jump in there and correct
>>them! I've lived in Southern California all my life, and I can tell you,
>>you will die in our deserts during the summer time, even if you believe
>>you are totally prepared for every possible problem. The best way is to
>>postpone that trip to Los Wages, for weather that will allow the
>>changing of a tire before you go into heat stroke.
>> Have you traveled through Death Valley in the good old summer time?
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>>Chris wrote:
>>
>>>This thread is starting to take on a life of its own, maybe even
>>>entertaining.
>
>