Rig weight - why worry?
09-17-2003, 09:47 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rig weight - why worry?
When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
much sense as far as I can see.
Am I overlooking something???
to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
much sense as far as I can see.
Am I overlooking something???
09-17-2003, 12:14 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
On 17 Sep 2003 06:47:16 -0700, spam_box@ev1.net (Joshua Nelson) wrote:
>When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
>to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
>I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
>argue - just saying I don't understand.)
I agree with you, if you were building a full-on rock buggy
for competition, maybe that would make a difference.
But for a regular Jeep, hell, I could have a big lunch and
overcome the weight savings, plus there is the hassle of
special coolant, sacrificial anodes, etc
>When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
>to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
>I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
>argue - just saying I don't understand.)
I agree with you, if you were building a full-on rock buggy
for competition, maybe that would make a difference.
But for a regular Jeep, hell, I could have a big lunch and
overcome the weight savings, plus there is the hassle of
special coolant, sacrificial anodes, etc
09-17-2003, 12:14 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
On 17 Sep 2003 06:47:16 -0700, spam_box@ev1.net (Joshua Nelson) wrote:
>When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
>to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
>I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
>argue - just saying I don't understand.)
I agree with you, if you were building a full-on rock buggy
for competition, maybe that would make a difference.
But for a regular Jeep, hell, I could have a big lunch and
overcome the weight savings, plus there is the hassle of
special coolant, sacrificial anodes, etc
>When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
>to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
>I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
>argue - just saying I don't understand.)
I agree with you, if you were building a full-on rock buggy
for competition, maybe that would make a difference.
But for a regular Jeep, hell, I could have a big lunch and
overcome the weight savings, plus there is the hassle of
special coolant, sacrificial anodes, etc
09-17-2003, 02:28 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
Approximately 9/17/03 06:47, Joshua Nelson uttered for posterity:
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
For the same weight and or volume, more cooling. Plus the
construction of an aluminum radiator is more efficient at
moving heat from the water to the air.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Possibly because the weight wasn't the overwhelming factor
for jeeps.
..
>
> Am I overlooking something???
Yes. See the discussion of heat transfer between copper/brass
and aluminum plus the discussion that the aluminum construction
allows better heat transfer between the cooling tubes and the
fins. Plus that the higher mechanical strength of aluminum
allows smaller pipes, thus more of them.
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
For the same weight and or volume, more cooling. Plus the
construction of an aluminum radiator is more efficient at
moving heat from the water to the air.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Possibly because the weight wasn't the overwhelming factor
for jeeps.
..
>
> Am I overlooking something???
Yes. See the discussion of heat transfer between copper/brass
and aluminum plus the discussion that the aluminum construction
allows better heat transfer between the cooling tubes and the
fins. Plus that the higher mechanical strength of aluminum
allows smaller pipes, thus more of them.
09-17-2003, 02:28 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
Approximately 9/17/03 06:47, Joshua Nelson uttered for posterity:
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
For the same weight and or volume, more cooling. Plus the
construction of an aluminum radiator is more efficient at
moving heat from the water to the air.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Possibly because the weight wasn't the overwhelming factor
for jeeps.
..
>
> Am I overlooking something???
Yes. See the discussion of heat transfer between copper/brass
and aluminum plus the discussion that the aluminum construction
allows better heat transfer between the cooling tubes and the
fins. Plus that the higher mechanical strength of aluminum
allows smaller pipes, thus more of them.
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
For the same weight and or volume, more cooling. Plus the
construction of an aluminum radiator is more efficient at
moving heat from the water to the air.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
Possibly because the weight wasn't the overwhelming factor
for jeeps.
..
>
> Am I overlooking something???
Yes. See the discussion of heat transfer between copper/brass
and aluminum plus the discussion that the aluminum construction
allows better heat transfer between the cooling tubes and the
fins. Plus that the higher mechanical strength of aluminum
allows smaller pipes, thus more of them.
09-17-2003, 03:47 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309170547.47a9296b@posting.google.c om...
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
>
> Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
> RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
> the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
> floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
> left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
> further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
> it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
> perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
> doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
>
> Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
> pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
> relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
> small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
> actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
>
> So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
> horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
> so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
> people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
> easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
>
> This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
> about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
> running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
> much sense as far as I can see.
>
> Am I overlooking something???
main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309170547.47a9296b@posting.google.c om...
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
>
> Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
> RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
> the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
> floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
> left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
> further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
> it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
> perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
> doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
>
> Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
> pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
> relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
> small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
> actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
>
> So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
> horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
> so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
> people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
> easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
>
> This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
> about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
> running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
> much sense as far as I can see.
>
> Am I overlooking something???
09-17-2003, 03:47 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309170547.47a9296b@posting.google.c om...
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
>
> Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
> RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
> the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
> floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
> left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
> further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
> it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
> perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
> doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
>
> Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
> pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
> relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
> small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
> actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
>
> So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
> horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
> so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
> people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
> easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
>
> This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
> about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
> running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
> much sense as far as I can see.
>
> Am I overlooking something???
main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309170547.47a9296b@posting.google.c om...
> When we were talking about radiators last week, general opinion seemed
> to be that the main advantage of aluminum was lower weight.
>
> I don't see how this matters that much. (Note: I'm not trying to
> argue - just saying I don't understand.)
>
> Here's my thinking: Most of the time, jeeping is a low speed, low
> RPM activity. You're not usually trying to fly up the hill or through
> the mud at max speed and power. It's rare to have the gas pedal
> floored when off-roading. So there's almost always plenty of "oomph"
> left in the vehicle which you could get by simply pressing down
> further on the accelerator. Further, most of the time you get stuck,
> it's because the wheels are spinning and not getting traction, or
> perhaps because you are hung up on something, not because the engine
> doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the wheels.
>
> Also, in the overall 3,000 or 4,000 pound weight of a jeep (maybe
> pushing 5000 lbs with passengers, winch, ice chest, etc.), the small
> relative weight difference of aluminum radiators seems like an awfully
> small drop in the bucket. Not to mention that additional weight can
> actually help a vehicle gain traciton.
>
> So, all in all, it seems to me like you're getting an extremely tiny
> horsepower improvement which probably isn't even needed. And to do
> so, the tradeoff is that you're now running aluminum, which several
> people have said is more expensive, harder to work with, and more
> easily damaged than a traditional radiator.
>
> This just seems like a lousy trade to me. If you're that concerned
> about weight, there are other things you could do, too, such as
> running without that big ol' heavy spare tire, but that makes about as
> much sense as far as I can see.
>
> Am I overlooking something???
09-17-2003, 04:19 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
Approximately 9/17/03 12:47, kid4lyf uttered for posterity:
> I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
> main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
> dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
It turns out that aluminum is well below copper and silver [the
kings of heat transfer] but barely above brass. The big advantage
is an aluminum to aluminum bond conducts better than the traditional
braze or solder of older radiators.
> I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
> main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
> dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
It turns out that aluminum is well below copper and silver [the
kings of heat transfer] but barely above brass. The big advantage
is an aluminum to aluminum bond conducts better than the traditional
braze or solder of older radiators.
09-17-2003, 04:19 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
Approximately 9/17/03 12:47, kid4lyf uttered for posterity:
> I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
> main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
> dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
It turns out that aluminum is well below copper and silver [the
kings of heat transfer] but barely above brass. The big advantage
is an aluminum to aluminum bond conducts better than the traditional
braze or solder of older radiators.
> I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight. The
> main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
> dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
It turns out that aluminum is well below copper and silver [the
kings of heat transfer] but barely above brass. The big advantage
is an aluminum to aluminum bond conducts better than the traditional
braze or solder of older radiators.
09-17-2003, 09:30 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Rig weight - why worry?
"Lon Stowell" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5l3ab.93030$mp.42433@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.ne t...
Approximately 9/17/03 12:47, kid4lyf uttered for posterity:
> I've never heard that the advantages of an aluminum radiator is weight.
The
> main advantage is that aluminum is about the best metal known for heat
> dissapation. Which is, obviously, the radiator's function.
I>t turns out that aluminum is well below copper and silver [the
>kings of heat transfer] but barely above brass. The big advantage
>is an aluminum to aluminum bond conducts better than the traditional
>braze or solder of older radiators.
Just a quick note, while copper is great at conducting heat, It is lousy at
radiating it, while aluminum is great at radiating it, which is why its
better for cooling.... (thats why you see some computer heatsinks madewith a
copper base and aluminum fins.
