William Oliveri

Yeah, plug coated with oil, wet on the threads, black black on the element.
Also, the engine runs progressivly poorer as the plug gets worse (from new
to worse).

Bill

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:402A6289.6080502@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> > Thanks Simon,
> > However, I do get fouling on the plug. If it was only the threads I
could
> > care less. The plug is coming out soaked with oil and fouling.
>
> Okay 'cause in your original post valve job messages you mentioned a
> "film of oil" and nothing about it actually running rough. Oil gets past
> the rings on even brand new modern engines.
>
> You say the plug does foul, by foul I mean you get so much crud that the
> plug can no longer manage to get an arc across the gap (at least
> consistently).
>
>
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

William Oliveri

Yeah, plug coated with oil, wet on the threads, black black on the element.
Also, the engine runs progressivly poorer as the plug gets worse (from new
to worse).

Bill

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:402A6289.6080502@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> > Thanks Simon,
> > However, I do get fouling on the plug. If it was only the threads I
could
> > care less. The plug is coming out soaked with oil and fouling.
>
> Okay 'cause in your original post valve job messages you mentioned a
> "film of oil" and nothing about it actually running rough. Oil gets past
> the rings on even brand new modern engines.
>
> You say the plug does foul, by foul I mean you get so much crud that the
> plug can no longer manage to get an arc across the gap (at least
> consistently).
>
>
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

William Oliveri

Yeah, plug coated with oil, wet on the threads, black black on the element.
Also, the engine runs progressivly poorer as the plug gets worse (from new
to worse).

Bill

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:402A6289.6080502@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> > Thanks Simon,
> > However, I do get fouling on the plug. If it was only the threads I
could
> > care less. The plug is coming out soaked with oil and fouling.
>
> Okay 'cause in your original post valve job messages you mentioned a
> "film of oil" and nothing about it actually running rough. Oil gets past
> the rings on even brand new modern engines.
>
> You say the plug does foul, by foul I mean you get so much crud that the
> plug can no longer manage to get an arc across the gap (at least
> consistently).
>
>
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Mike Romain

I am thinking an injector not shutting all the way off. It doesn't have
to be all the way 'on', just have a chunk of junk in it so it doesn't go
all the way 'off'.

The pressure leak down test is a quick and easy check for that anyway.

If it was clogged closed, well... I don't think I have ever heard of an
injector that was clogged closed, they always are 'leaky' when they get
old. A good soak in carb cleaner can clean them up.

I am thinking soot black on the electrode means too rich and a wet base
means it is leaking after shut down.

I would try that test anyway. That will sure let you know if something
is indeed leaking or not shutting all the way off.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

Mike Romain

I am thinking an injector not shutting all the way off. It doesn't have
to be all the way 'on', just have a chunk of junk in it so it doesn't go
all the way 'off'.

The pressure leak down test is a quick and easy check for that anyway.

If it was clogged closed, well... I don't think I have ever heard of an
injector that was clogged closed, they always are 'leaky' when they get
old. A good soak in carb cleaner can clean them up.

I am thinking soot black on the electrode means too rich and a wet base
means it is leaking after shut down.

I would try that test anyway. That will sure let you know if something
is indeed leaking or not shutting all the way off.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

Mike Romain

I am thinking an injector not shutting all the way off. It doesn't have
to be all the way 'on', just have a chunk of junk in it so it doesn't go
all the way 'off'.

The pressure leak down test is a quick and easy check for that anyway.

If it was clogged closed, well... I don't think I have ever heard of an
injector that was clogged closed, they always are 'leaky' when they get
old. A good soak in carb cleaner can clean them up.

I am thinking soot black on the electrode means too rich and a wet base
means it is leaking after shut down.

I would try that test anyway. That will sure let you know if something
is indeed leaking or not shutting all the way off.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

Will Honea

If you are not getting fuel to the chamber then it should stay dry -
the carbon black on the plug is a pretty good indicator of running
rich.

Before you pull the fuel rail (about 4, maybe 5 small bolts) go get a
o-ring kit and grab a package of the plastic quick connects used on
the lines - at least used by the OEM setup. If this MPI kit is pretty
new, you might get by but if it's more than a year old, get a new set
of o-rings to seal the injectors.

You can buy a noid (just a light bulb, really) that goes inline with
the injector connection to see if it's getting a firing pulse or just
monitor it with a cheap VOM. It could easily be a wiring or bad
commector problem.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:29:36 UTC "William Oliveri"
<wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote:

> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Will Honea

If you are not getting fuel to the chamber then it should stay dry -
the carbon black on the plug is a pretty good indicator of running
rich.

Before you pull the fuel rail (about 4, maybe 5 small bolts) go get a
o-ring kit and grab a package of the plastic quick connects used on
the lines - at least used by the OEM setup. If this MPI kit is pretty
new, you might get by but if it's more than a year old, get a new set
of o-rings to seal the injectors.

You can buy a noid (just a light bulb, really) that goes inline with
the injector connection to see if it's getting a firing pulse or just
monitor it with a cheap VOM. It could easily be a wiring or bad
commector problem.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:29:36 UTC "William Oliveri"
<wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote:

> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Will Honea

If you are not getting fuel to the chamber then it should stay dry -
the carbon black on the plug is a pretty good indicator of running
rich.

Before you pull the fuel rail (about 4, maybe 5 small bolts) go get a
o-ring kit and grab a package of the plastic quick connects used on
the lines - at least used by the OEM setup. If this MPI kit is pretty
new, you might get by but if it's more than a year old, get a new set
of o-rings to seal the injectors.

You can buy a noid (just a light bulb, really) that goes inline with
the injector connection to see if it's getting a firing pulse or just
monitor it with a cheap VOM. It could easily be a wiring or bad
commector problem.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:29:36 UTC "William Oliveri"
<wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote:

> Yeah, it has a place to attach a fuel pressure gauge and I do have a fuel
> pressure gauge so I can try that. Also, I need to hook up my Check Engine
> light for the MPI kit. Perhaps there's some diagnoistic codes being spit
> out that I don't know about.
>
> If the injector was clogged though, would it show any difference in
> pressure? I have not smelled any fuel smells, especially when I pulled the
> plug after a drive. If it was spewing too much gas I surely would smell
> something.
>
> If the injector is clogged then I would get little gas to the cylinder and
> that would cause the intermittent spark, yes? Then the oil fouling later
> down the road, true?
>
> If the injector is clogged from carbon and excessive oil due to the seals
> the best bet I would have now I guess would be the BG 44K to clean that
> stuff out.
>
> I mean, If I look at the numbers that came back on my tests, you are right.
> The compression is good and the leak down on #2 is not far off from #3 but
> I'm not having the same problem with #3 so.......
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:402A5C48.1B8F11D0@sympatico.ca...
> > The whole rail has to come off eh?
> >
> > I really can't think of anything else that would cause the mis fire and
> > wet plug.
> >
> > Is there any way to check the electrical pulse coming to the injector?
> > My books don't cover that, but you should be able to see if there is an
> > electrical pulse happening at the injector.
> >
> > I also believe you can check for a leaky injector. One that stays open
> > thus flooding the one spark plug. I think if one is stuck, the fuel
> > pressure will drop down fast after the engine shuts down. If the system
> > is sealed good I believe it should hold pressure overnight.
> >
> > Does your fuel rail have a place to attach a pressure gauge? If so I
> > would put one on and watch what happens after shutting it down.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, have you ever change out an injector for a MPI kit? Doesn't look
> easy
> > > or simple, not like changing a spark plug otherwise it would be done
> > > already. Do you have any call outs so I can see just what I'm getting
> into?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:402A3DD7.3B54F6F7@sympatico.ca...
> > > > Bill, those numbers mean crap on an old engine.
> > > >
> > > > You bought a 'used' fuel injection system.
> > > >
> > > > You have replaced 'everything' electrical relating to that engine.
> > > >
> > > > You have excellent compression.
> > > >
> > > > You have no spark on one cylinder.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion you are totally wasting your time mucking about until
> you
> > > > swap that injector out.
> > > >
> > > > Hey, but it's your time to waste, me I would rather be wheeling.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a summary of events that started this whole thing. I had
> > > previously
> > > > > been told I was blowing blue smoke by a mechanic but I couldn't see
> it
> > > so I
> > > > > blew it off for the mean time but kept watch. Then one day I found
> a
> > > place
> > > > > to go 4 wheeling for the first time since I bought this jeep.
> > > Everything
> > > > > went fine on the trail but soon after I began to blow blue smoke
> which
> > > > > occurred if I let it idle for a few minutes and then pump on the
> gas.
> > > Also,
> > > > > my plugs (all of them) fouled out. After considerable help here and
> > > other
> > > > > places I replaced the valve seals to see if this would help. After
> > > > > completion I saw the engine ran great and when I looked at the plugs
> > > after
> > > > > about 15 minutes at idle, they all looked perfect. Also I had no
> blue
> > > > > smoke. Then I drove it for about 10 miles and I could feel the
> engine
> > > go
> > > > > out of balance and felt like it was missing so I checked the plugs
> > > again.
> > > > > #2 was oil soaked and fouled out. All the rest were fine. I say
> oil
> > > fouled
> > > > > because when I pulled the plug I could run my fingers around the
> plug
> > > > > threads and wet oil would come off on my fingers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jump to present and reply to your post below:
> > > > >
> > > > > I checked the wires, changed them out (switched them), bought a new
> cap
> > > and
> > > > > rotor, still the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Got my leak down tester today and tried it out. The only bad thing
> is
> > > the
> > > > > hose to the spark plug hole didn't fit so I made a make shift
> coupler
> > > and
> > > > > connected it to my old compression tester hose. It worked but there
> was
> > > a
> > > > > slight leak in the coupling which I don't know how much it will
> affect
> > > the
> > > > > results. I think minimally but I will get a fitting tomorrow which
> will
> > > > > totally clear that up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, here we go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did the first three cylinders twice, #2 is the problem cylinder
> with
> > > the
> > > > > oil leak.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 18% leak down, 21% leak down.
> > > > > #2 35% leak down, 35% leak down.
> > > > > #3 28% leak down, 31% leak down.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are hugh numbers as far as I know. I think I should be under
> 10%
> > > and
> > > > > definitely be under 15%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also got a new compression tester yesterday and last night did a
> > > > > compression on the first two cylinders.
> > > > >
> > > > > #1 150 psi
> > > > > #2 150 psi
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was the same as my mechanic's results.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heads spinning on this one. One thing I'm going to try, and it's
> a
> > > long
> > > > > shot, is I have some super duper carbon dissolver that you pour in
> the
> > > tank.
> > > > > Perhaps after the engine ran rich (when I had the carb on it, now I
> have
> > > > > fuel injection) and combined with the oil leaking before I changed
> the
> > > > > seals, perhaps I got some serious carbon build up in the chamber
> which
> > > is
> > > > > either clogging the injector or causing a valve to remain open.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know but this is the easiest try first. I looked at the
> > > injectors
> > > > > to see about changing them and it doesn't look easy at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20iWb.14276$fV5.352602@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > > I guess I missed the beginning of all this! A plug with
> > > > > > black, wet deposits that is fouled is either fuel fouled (As
> > > > > > is the 99:1 liklihood in your case) or oil fouled (which
> > > > > > everyone but you feels it is not!)
> > > > > > You have hopefully already checked these items, but they are
> > > > > > all VERY common and cause exactly the symptoms you describe:
> > > > > > Bad plug wire(s); Cross-tracking in distributor cap; You've
> > > > > > changed the plug, so that's taken care of: an injector with
> > > > > > bad spray pattern or not sealing, but I doubt this one... No
> > > > > > blue smoke - any black smoke? If that cylinder is running
> > > > > > that rich, there would be black smoke. Now that I understand
> > > > > > what the fuss was all about, my money's on the "lack of
> > > > > > spark" side of the equation! A friend once gave away a
> > > > > > perfectly good CRX Honda with a newly rebuilt engine because
> > > > > > it fouled 2 plugs repeatedly. It had the original sparkplug
> > > > > > wires on it! Spark plug wires aren't like they used to be
> > > > > > back when I was a kid - One set for the life of the car! I
> > > > > > have had bad single wires in sets quite a few times and have
> > > > > > had one or two go bad within a year, but not real common.
> > > > > > After 3 or 4 years, you'll almost always have a definite
> > > > > > performance gain when you install new wires. That said, all
> > > > > > the old-timers are gonna climb all over me - I used to doubt
> > > > > > it myself, but am now a believer after gaining some (bad)
> > > > > > experience!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you already went through all the ignition stuff - as I
> > > > > > said, I missed the beginning. If you did, I'd suggest
> > > > > > checking it very carefully one more time. There is also the
> > > > > > remote possibility that you have the order wrong, but you
> > > > > > should have had symptoms for that. Look for anything that
> > > > > > can diminish the spark on that plug - the easy stuff 1st
> > > > > > like wiping out any grease in the hole and on the top
> > > > > > surface around the hole - if you use anti seize compound on
> > > > > > the threads, a build-up is bad and some are non-conductive.
> > > > > > If long enough, swap two plug wires (swap em at the dizzy
> > > > > > and the plugs, remember!) and see if your wet plug moves
> > > > > > with the wire. Cracks or cross-tracking in the distributor
> > > > > > cap are common and you probably will only see indications if
> > > > > > you watch it running in total darkness (away from city
> > > > > > light.) Then there is the remote possibility of something
> > > > > > mechanically wrong like a bad distributor shaft bushing or
> > > > > > something like that - should be bad for all cyls tho. On the
> > > > > > "almost totally unheard of" page is a worn point cam on one
> > > > > > lobe only! This engine most likely does not use ignition
> > > > > > points, BTW. The old Jeep V-6's had some point cam issues,
> > > > > > but they had weird point cams anyway (3 lobes at a certain
> > > > > > angle - other 3 lobes at a different angle!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that you have the compression gauge, check it about once
> > > > > > a year and keep a log book. Any time something changes in
> > > > > > engine performance rather radically and somewhat suddenly,
> > > > > > whip out the compression gauge and check it before you do
> > > > > > any "What-if" worrying!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm betting against the bad injector theory!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:c09dpq$14qf6p$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > I just bought a good compression tester today and had a
> > > > > > chance to test the
> > > > > > > first two cylinders (#1 and #2, #2 is the leaker/problem),
> > > > > > ran out of time
> > > > > > > before I could get them all done. I got 150 psi on both
> > > > > > cylinders after 4
> > > > > > > cranks on a cold engine. This is exactly what my mechanic
> > > > > > got.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments? So does this point to the head/valve guide as
> > > > > > the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>