Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:15:23 -0800, L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:

A U.S. military 'at its breaking point' considers foreign recruits



By BryanBender
The Boston Globe

Tuesday, December 26, 2006



WASHINGTON

The armed forces, already struggling to meet recruiting goals, are
considering expanding the number of noncitizens in the ranks - including
disputed proposals to open recruiting stations overseas and put more
immigrants on a faster track to U.S. citizenship if they volunteer -
according to Pentagon officials.

Foreign citizens' serving in the U.S. military is a highly charged issue,
which could expose the Pentagon to criticism that it is essentially using
mercenaries to defend the country. Other analysts voice concern that a
large contingent of noncitizens under arms could jeopardize national
security or reflect badly on Americans' willingness to serve in uniform.

The idea of signing up residents who are seeking U.S. citizenship is
gaining traction as a way to address a critical need for the Pentagon,
while fully absorbing some of the roughly one million immigrants that
enter the United States legally each year.

The proposal to induct more noncitizens, which is still largely on the
drawing board, has to clear a number of hurdles. So far, the Pentagon has
been quiet about specifics, like who would be eligible to join, where the
recruiting stations would be, and what the minimum standards might
involve, like English proficiency. In the meantime, the Pentagon and the
immigration authorities have expanded a program that accelerates
citizenship for legal residents who volunteer for the military.

Since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the number of immigrants in
uniform who have become U.S. citizens has increased from 750 in 2001 to
almost 4,600 last year, according to military statistics.

With severe manpower strains because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,
and a mandate to expand the overall size of the military, the Pentagon is
under pressure to consider a variety of proposals involving foreign
recruits, according to a military affairs analyst.

"It works as a military idea and it works in the context of American
immigration," said Thomas Donnelly, a military scholar at the conservative
American Enterprise Institute in Washington and a leading proponent of
recruiting more foreigners to serve in the military.

As the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan grind on, the Pentagon has warned
Congress and the White House that the military is stretched "to the
breaking point."

Both President George W. Bush and Robert Gates, his new defense secretary,
have acknowledged that the total size of the military must be expanded to
help alleviate the strain on ground troops, many of whom have been
deployed repeatedly in combat theaters.

Bush said last week that he had ordered Gates to come up with a plan for
the first significant increase in ground forces since the end of the Cold
War.

That has led Pentagon officials to consider casting a wider net for
noncitizens who are already in the United States, said Lieutenant Colonel
Bryan Hilferty, an army spokesman.

Already, the army and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement division of
the Department of Homeland Security have "made it easier for green-card
holders who do enlist to get their citizenship," Hilferty said.

Other army officials, who asked not to be identified, said personnel
officials were working with Congress and other parts of the government to
test the feasibility of going beyond U.S. borders to recruit soldiers and
marines.

Currently, Pentagon policy stipulates that only immigrants legally
residing in the United States are eligible to enlist. There are currently
about 30,000 noncitizens who serve in the U.S. armed forces, making up
about 2 percent of the active- duty force, according to statistics from
the military and the Council on Foreign Relations. About 100 such
noncitizens have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A recent change in U.S. law, however, gave the Pentagon authority to bring
immigrants to the United States if it determines it is vital to national
security. So far, the Pentagon has not taken advantage of it, but the
calls are growing to use this new authority.

Indeed, some top military thinkers believe the United States should go as
far as targeting foreigners in their native countries.

"It's a little dramatic," said Michael O'Hanlon, a military specialist at
the nonpartisan Brookings Institution and another supporter of the
proposal. "But if you don't get some new idea how to do this, we will not
be able to achieve an increase" in the size of the armed forces.

"We have already done the standard things to recruit new soldiers,
including using more recruiters and new advertising campaigns," O'Hanlon
added.

O'Hanlon and others noted that the country has relied before on sizable
numbers of noncitizens to serve in the military - in the Revolutionary
War, for example, German and French soldiers served alongside the
colonists, and locals were recruited into U.S. ranks to fight insurgents
in the Philippines.

Other nations have recruited foreign citizens: In France, the famed
Foreign Legion relies on about 8,000 noncitizens; Nepalese Gurkhas have
fought and died with British Army forces for two centuries; and the Swiss
Guard, which protects the Vatican, consists of troops who hail from many
nations.

"It is not without historical precedent," Donnelly said.

Still, to some military officials and civil rights groups, relying on a
large number of foreigners to serve in the military is offensive.

A Hispanic rights advocacy group, National Council of La Raza, has said
that the plan sends the wrong message that Americans themselves are not
willing to sacrifice to defend their country. Officials have also raised
concerns that immigrants would be disproportionately sent to the front
lines as "cannon fodder" in any conflict.

Some within the army privately express concern that a big push to recruit
noncitizens would smack of "the decline of the American empire," said one
army official who asked not to be identified.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:15:23 -0800, L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:

A U.S. military 'at its breaking point' considers foreign recruits



By BryanBender
The Boston Globe

Tuesday, December 26, 2006



WASHINGTON

The armed forces, already struggling to meet recruiting goals, are
considering expanding the number of noncitizens in the ranks - including
disputed proposals to open recruiting stations overseas and put more
immigrants on a faster track to U.S. citizenship if they volunteer -
according to Pentagon officials.

Foreign citizens' serving in the U.S. military is a highly charged issue,
which could expose the Pentagon to criticism that it is essentially using
mercenaries to defend the country. Other analysts voice concern that a
large contingent of noncitizens under arms could jeopardize national
security or reflect badly on Americans' willingness to serve in uniform.

The idea of signing up residents who are seeking U.S. citizenship is
gaining traction as a way to address a critical need for the Pentagon,
while fully absorbing some of the roughly one million immigrants that
enter the United States legally each year.

The proposal to induct more noncitizens, which is still largely on the
drawing board, has to clear a number of hurdles. So far, the Pentagon has
been quiet about specifics, like who would be eligible to join, where the
recruiting stations would be, and what the minimum standards might
involve, like English proficiency. In the meantime, the Pentagon and the
immigration authorities have expanded a program that accelerates
citizenship for legal residents who volunteer for the military.

Since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the number of immigrants in
uniform who have become U.S. citizens has increased from 750 in 2001 to
almost 4,600 last year, according to military statistics.

With severe manpower strains because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,
and a mandate to expand the overall size of the military, the Pentagon is
under pressure to consider a variety of proposals involving foreign
recruits, according to a military affairs analyst.

"It works as a military idea and it works in the context of American
immigration," said Thomas Donnelly, a military scholar at the conservative
American Enterprise Institute in Washington and a leading proponent of
recruiting more foreigners to serve in the military.

As the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan grind on, the Pentagon has warned
Congress and the White House that the military is stretched "to the
breaking point."

Both President George W. Bush and Robert Gates, his new defense secretary,
have acknowledged that the total size of the military must be expanded to
help alleviate the strain on ground troops, many of whom have been
deployed repeatedly in combat theaters.

Bush said last week that he had ordered Gates to come up with a plan for
the first significant increase in ground forces since the end of the Cold
War.

That has led Pentagon officials to consider casting a wider net for
noncitizens who are already in the United States, said Lieutenant Colonel
Bryan Hilferty, an army spokesman.

Already, the army and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement division of
the Department of Homeland Security have "made it easier for green-card
holders who do enlist to get their citizenship," Hilferty said.

Other army officials, who asked not to be identified, said personnel
officials were working with Congress and other parts of the government to
test the feasibility of going beyond U.S. borders to recruit soldiers and
marines.

Currently, Pentagon policy stipulates that only immigrants legally
residing in the United States are eligible to enlist. There are currently
about 30,000 noncitizens who serve in the U.S. armed forces, making up
about 2 percent of the active- duty force, according to statistics from
the military and the Council on Foreign Relations. About 100 such
noncitizens have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A recent change in U.S. law, however, gave the Pentagon authority to bring
immigrants to the United States if it determines it is vital to national
security. So far, the Pentagon has not taken advantage of it, but the
calls are growing to use this new authority.

Indeed, some top military thinkers believe the United States should go as
far as targeting foreigners in their native countries.

"It's a little dramatic," said Michael O'Hanlon, a military specialist at
the nonpartisan Brookings Institution and another supporter of the
proposal. "But if you don't get some new idea how to do this, we will not
be able to achieve an increase" in the size of the armed forces.

"We have already done the standard things to recruit new soldiers,
including using more recruiters and new advertising campaigns," O'Hanlon
added.

O'Hanlon and others noted that the country has relied before on sizable
numbers of noncitizens to serve in the military - in the Revolutionary
War, for example, German and French soldiers served alongside the
colonists, and locals were recruited into U.S. ranks to fight insurgents
in the Philippines.

Other nations have recruited foreign citizens: In France, the famed
Foreign Legion relies on about 8,000 noncitizens; Nepalese Gurkhas have
fought and died with British Army forces for two centuries; and the Swiss
Guard, which protects the Vatican, consists of troops who hail from many
nations.

"It is not without historical precedent," Donnelly said.

Still, to some military officials and civil rights groups, relying on a
large number of foreigners to serve in the military is offensive.

A Hispanic rights advocacy group, National Council of La Raza, has said
that the plan sends the wrong message that Americans themselves are not
willing to sacrifice to defend their country. Officials have also raised
concerns that immigrants would be disproportionately sent to the front
lines as "cannon fodder" in any conflict.

Some within the army privately express concern that a big push to recruit
noncitizens would smack of "the decline of the American empire," said one
army official who asked not to be identified.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

The Merg wrote:
> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.
>

That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
room and board.

Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
of assignment.

It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.

All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
bad deal.


> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.
>


For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

The Merg wrote:
> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.
>

That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
room and board.

Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
of assignment.

It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.

All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
bad deal.


> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.
>


For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

The Merg wrote:
> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.
>

That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
room and board.

Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
of assignment.

It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.

All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
bad deal.


> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.
>


For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

I'm just going by what the guys on my team told me; I'm sure it would
be easy to confirm or deny what they said. I didn't (and don't) have
any reason to believe they weren't right. I believe the statement came
from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.

My dad is still in his job because he has a lot of money tied into his
pension plan and still has two (of six) kids in high school, the poor
guy.


Tom Greening wrote:
> The Merg wrote:
> > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> > Annapolis.
> >
>
> That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
> Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
> base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
> live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
> as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
> and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
> housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
> don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
> to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
> third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
> to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
> but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
> room and board.
>
> Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
> days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
> moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
> years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
> life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
> bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
> of assignment.
>
> It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
> man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.
>
> All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
> bad deal.
>
>
> > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> > worth in the private sector.
> >
>
>
> For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
> that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
> be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

I'm just going by what the guys on my team told me; I'm sure it would
be easy to confirm or deny what they said. I didn't (and don't) have
any reason to believe they weren't right. I believe the statement came
from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.

My dad is still in his job because he has a lot of money tied into his
pension plan and still has two (of six) kids in high school, the poor
guy.


Tom Greening wrote:
> The Merg wrote:
> > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> > Annapolis.
> >
>
> That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
> Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
> base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
> live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
> as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
> and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
> housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
> don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
> to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
> third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
> to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
> but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
> room and board.
>
> Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
> days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
> moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
> years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
> life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
> bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
> of assignment.
>
> It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
> man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.
>
> All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
> bad deal.
>
>
> > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> > worth in the private sector.
> >
>
>
> For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
> that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
> be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

I'm just going by what the guys on my team told me; I'm sure it would
be easy to confirm or deny what they said. I didn't (and don't) have
any reason to believe they weren't right. I believe the statement came
from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.

My dad is still in his job because he has a lot of money tied into his
pension plan and still has two (of six) kids in high school, the poor
guy.


Tom Greening wrote:
> The Merg wrote:
> > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> > Annapolis.
> >
>
> That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
> Corp back in the 80's. Back then if you were single you could live on
> base free of charge with 3 square a day. If you were married you could
> live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
> as a food allowance for your family. If there was no housing available
> and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
> housing allowance. You could also get this as a single person but I
> don't remember the exact requirements for that. I remember that it used
> to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
> third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
> to get married and have kids. I've been out of the loop quite awhile
> but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
> room and board.
>
> Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family. Thirty
> days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
> moved free of charge. Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
> years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
> life and commissary privileges on any base any where. My reenlistment
> bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
> of assignment.
>
> It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
> man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.
>
> All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
> bad deal.
>
>
> > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> > worth in the private sector.
> >
>
>
> For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
> that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
> be there.

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they
were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where
they were being paid per diem. That might have changed since I was in
the military.

Yes, you got free room and board. In some bases, the military meals
were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their
ability to turn available stock into edible results. ..and there were
a few of the other type as well. As for the free housing, that was if
you lived in barracks and were single. If you were a platoon sergeant
or squad leader you typically got a private room. Otherwise you might
be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be
in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in
one big room. With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any
military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room.

Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing
allowance and food allowance. If they ate in the mess hall they had to
pay.

If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay.

In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to
pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some
sort of detachment.

Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not
free.

The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different
skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of
funds. Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably
higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food.
Civilian jobs paid even more.



The Merg proclaimed:

> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.
>
> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.
>
> Dave Milne wrote:
>
>>One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
>>military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
>>A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant (8
>>years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504).
>>That really sucks.
>>
>>http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm
>>http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/
>>
>>Dave Milne, Scotland
>>
>>
>>"L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:4590CC0B.6D96A629@cox.net...
>>
>>>Twas the night before Christmas
>>>He lived all alone
>>>In a one bedroom house made of
>>>Plaster and Stone
>>>I had come down the Chimney
>>>With presents to give.
>>>And to see just who
>>>In this home did live.
>>>I looked all about
>>>A strange sight I did see.
>>>No tinsel, No presents,
>>>Not even a tree.
>>>No stocking by the mantle,
>>>Just boots filled with sand.
>>>On the wall hung pictures
>>>Of far distant lands.
>>>With medals and badges,
>>>Awards of all kinds,
>>>A sober thought
>>>Came through my mind.
>>>For this house was different,
>>>It was dark and dreary,
>>>I found the home of a soldier,
>>>Once I could see clearly.
>>>The soldier lay sleeping,
>>>Silent, alone,
>>>Curled up on the floor
>>>In this one bedroom home.
>>>The face was so gentle,
>>>The room in such disorder,
>>>Not how I pictured
>>>A United States Soldier.
>>>Was this the hero
>>>Of whom I'd just read?
>>>Curled up on a Poncho,
>>>The floor for a bed?
>>>I realized the families
>>>That I saw this night,
>>>Owed their lives to these soldiers
>>>Who were willing to fight.
>>>Soon round the world,
>>>The children would play,
>>>And grownup would celebrate
>>>A bright Christmas Day.
>>>They all enjoyed freedom
>>>Each month of the year,
>>>Because of the soldiers,
>>>Like the one lying here.
>>>I couldn't help wonder
>>>How many lay alone,
>>>On a cold Christmas Eve
>>>In a land far from home.
>>>The very thought
>>>Brought a tear to my eye,
>>>I dropped to my knees
>>>And started to Cry.
>>>The soldier awakened
>>>And I heard a rough voice,
>>>"Santa don't cry,
>>>This life is my choice."
>>>The solider rolled over
>>>And drifted to sleep,
>>>I couldn't control it,
>>>I continued to weep.
>>>I kept watch for hours,
>>>So silent and still
>>>And we both shivered
>>>>From the cold nights chill.
>>>I didn't want to leave
>>>On that cold, dark, night,
>>>This guardian of Honor
>>>So willing to fight.
>>>The solider rolled over,
>>>With a voice soft and pure,
>>>Whispered, "Carry on Santa,
>>>It's Christmas Day, All is secure."
>>>One look at my watch,
>>>And I knew he was right.
>>>"Merry Christmas my friend,
>>>And to all a good night."
>
>

Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
 

Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they
were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where
they were being paid per diem. That might have changed since I was in
the military.

Yes, you got free room and board. In some bases, the military meals
were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their
ability to turn available stock into edible results. ..and there were
a few of the other type as well. As for the free housing, that was if
you lived in barracks and were single. If you were a platoon sergeant
or squad leader you typically got a private room. Otherwise you might
be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be
in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in
one big room. With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any
military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room.

Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing
allowance and food allowance. If they ate in the mess hall they had to
pay.

If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay.

In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to
pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some
sort of detachment.

Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not
free.

The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different
skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of
funds. Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably
higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food.
Civilian jobs paid even more.



The Merg proclaimed:

> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club
> lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
> a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
> get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they
> make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
> The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.
>
> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.
>
> Dave Milne wrote:
>
>>One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
>>military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
>>A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant (8
>>years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504).
>>That really sucks.
>>
>>http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm
>>http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/
>>
>>Dave Milne, Scotland
>>
>>
>>"L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:4590CC0B.6D96A629@cox.net...
>>
>>>Twas the night before Christmas
>>>He lived all alone
>>>In a one bedroom house made of
>>>Plaster and Stone
>>>I had come down the Chimney
>>>With presents to give.
>>>And to see just who
>>>In this home did live.
>>>I looked all about
>>>A strange sight I did see.
>>>No tinsel, No presents,
>>>Not even a tree.
>>>No stocking by the mantle,
>>>Just boots filled with sand.
>>>On the wall hung pictures
>>>Of far distant lands.
>>>With medals and badges,
>>>Awards of all kinds,
>>>A sober thought
>>>Came through my mind.
>>>For this house was different,
>>>It was dark and dreary,
>>>I found the home of a soldier,
>>>Once I could see clearly.
>>>The soldier lay sleeping,
>>>Silent, alone,
>>>Curled up on the floor
>>>In this one bedroom home.
>>>The face was so gentle,
>>>The room in such disorder,
>>>Not how I pictured
>>>A United States Soldier.
>>>Was this the hero
>>>Of whom I'd just read?
>>>Curled up on a Poncho,
>>>The floor for a bed?
>>>I realized the families
>>>That I saw this night,
>>>Owed their lives to these soldiers
>>>Who were willing to fight.
>>>Soon round the world,
>>>The children would play,
>>>And grownup would celebrate
>>>A bright Christmas Day.
>>>They all enjoyed freedom
>>>Each month of the year,
>>>Because of the soldiers,
>>>Like the one lying here.
>>>I couldn't help wonder
>>>How many lay alone,
>>>On a cold Christmas Eve
>>>In a land far from home.
>>>The very thought
>>>Brought a tear to my eye,
>>>I dropped to my knees
>>>And started to Cry.
>>>The soldier awakened
>>>And I heard a rough voice,
>>>"Santa don't cry,
>>>This life is my choice."
>>>The solider rolled over
>>>And drifted to sleep,
>>>I couldn't control it,
>>>I continued to weep.
>>>I kept watch for hours,
>>>So silent and still
>>>And we both shivered
>>>>From the cold nights chill.
>>>I didn't want to leave
>>>On that cold, dark, night,
>>>This guardian of Honor
>>>So willing to fight.
>>>The solider rolled over,
>>>With a voice soft and pure,
>>>Whispered, "Carry on Santa,
>>>It's Christmas Day, All is secure."
>>>One look at my watch,
>>>And I knew he was right.
>>>"Merry Christmas my friend,
>>>And to all a good night."
>
>