Mike Romain

Thanks for the input!

Mike

bllsht wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:56:38 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The MCU could be toast. A used one at the wreckers is cheap. I would
>> also try the 'Jeep' shops for a used one. 'DON'T' give any of them
>> money up front though, none of them are reliable enough for that. I
>> know too many horror stories first hand even.
>>
>> The O2 sensor could also just be bad so the MCU has nothing to base
>> changing the mix on....
>>
>> Any number of sensors could have failed causing the MCU to go into 'limp
>> home' mode.
>>
> Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should
> still move. It should also complete the initialization process when
> you crank the engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to
> the "centered" position. If it does this, you can pretty much
> eliminate a stepper motor circuit problem.
>
>> The trouble is, they don't have a computer to tell them anything about
>> it so have to shoot blind unless they really know 4.2's and their
>> systems. There is a test block on the firewall for the sensors that
>> needs a special 'Jeep' computer to read or knowledge with a multimeter.
>>
> That special computer was pretty much just a fancy multimeter. It
> couldn't do anything you couldn't do faster with a multimeter and a
> handheld vacuum pump/gauge.
>
>> Only one more E test too eh. Too bad it messed up just then.
>>
>> The hard cold and hot starts could be as simple as having the gas filter
>> in upside down. The filter has two outlets, you need to make sure the
>> center outlet goes to the carb and the 'top' outlet goes to the return
>> line. if the return line isn't up top, the gas siphons back to the tank
>> when it sits and blows back to the tank on a hot shutdown effectively
>> vapor locking it.
>>
>> Where abouts in Ontario are you? If you are close to Toronto, I know
>> how to double check the pins and the O2 and other sensors to see if
>> there is anything happening there. I also can make them pass emissions,
>> but I kill the computer doing it so it has to be manually tuned up.
>> This is called the 'Nutter' bypass.
>>
>> You also might want to just run it through the sniffer to see how far
>> off passing emissions it now is.
>>
>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
>> Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>>
>> JEEPR wrote:
>>> Have a 88 yj with 4.2, standard.. Rins roughon cold start and excessive
>>> crank on hot start. Dealer service says metering pins are not moving in and
>>> out to regulate air and fuel.. Says the mechanic metered the MCU and it is
>>> faulty. New part is $800.
>>> Are they on the right track or are they trying to pull one?
>>> Trying to get ready for the ontario E-Test. Will it pass the e-test with
>>> out replacement?
>>>
>>>

JEEPR

Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
failed 4 out of 5 test points.



I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.

Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
circuit problem.

With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
activate the stepper motor to see if it works?



Mike

I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
is a 14 day process barring custom delays.

Every solution breeds new problems..

0||||||0

MATT

JEEPR

Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
failed 4 out of 5 test points.



I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.

Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
circuit problem.

With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
activate the stepper motor to see if it works?



Mike

I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
is a 14 day process barring custom delays.

Every solution breeds new problems..

0||||||0

MATT

Mike Romain

JEEPR wrote:
> Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
> failed 4 out of 5 test points.
>
>
>
> I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.
>
> Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
> move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
> engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
> position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
> circuit problem.
>
> With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
> activate the stepper motor to see if it works?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
> dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
> can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
> is a 14 day process barring custom delays.
>
> Every solution breeds new problems..
>
> 0||||||0
>
> MATT
>
>
There are two shops I know of in Toronto that will sell long distance
and likely have them used.

Well one is gone it would seem.. For the better.

Here are some:
http://www.justjeeps.com/default.asp
http://www.national4wd.com/index.php
http://www.eotb.ca/index.php?name=We...eq=MostPopular
http://overdriveauto.com/locations.php

Too bad you are so far away. I normally pass by your place on my way
camping over New Years, but don't think I will make it this year. We
hit the bush up near Weslemkoon, Lingham Lake and Bon Echo Park area for
a week usually in our Jeeps. We run the dual use logging/sled trails.
See the photos in my sig line link. I bought my 'glass body from a gent
named Brian just north of Kingston 8 years ago. He does fantastic work!
Hmm, I wonder. Here is his last known email address, maybe he can
hook you up? ppaq@sympatico.ca Feel free to use my name please.

If you had someone comfortable setting up a carb and timing, your Jeep
can be made to purr by disabling the emissions computer and just
manually setting it up. That is a free 25% seat of the pants power
boost raising the 'actual' top end to 4400 rpm and I am getting
11L/100km or about 23 mpg highway with mine.

Mine, as well as every one (more than half dozen) I have 'Nuttered' also
passed Ontario emissions on the ASM 2525 test with my last numbers
being: 589 NOx, 16 ppm HC and 0.11% CO. My CJ7 also doesn't need or
have a Cat on it!

You just need to add two new wires and connect the orange and purple
wires at the ignition module to the orange and purple at the distributor
to put the computer out of your misery. You then manually set the carb
mix screws with the stepper pins set in the center of their travel and
set the timing because it will be off about 15 deg.

It really is that simple...
http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/ignmods.htm

Hope this helps,

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

Mike Romain

JEEPR wrote:
> Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
> failed 4 out of 5 test points.
>
>
>
> I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.
>
> Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
> move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
> engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
> position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
> circuit problem.
>
> With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
> activate the stepper motor to see if it works?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
> dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
> can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
> is a 14 day process barring custom delays.
>
> Every solution breeds new problems..
>
> 0||||||0
>
> MATT
>
>
There are two shops I know of in Toronto that will sell long distance
and likely have them used.

Well one is gone it would seem.. For the better.

Here are some:
http://www.justjeeps.com/default.asp
http://www.national4wd.com/index.php
http://www.eotb.ca/index.php?name=We...eq=MostPopular
http://overdriveauto.com/locations.php

Too bad you are so far away. I normally pass by your place on my way
camping over New Years, but don't think I will make it this year. We
hit the bush up near Weslemkoon, Lingham Lake and Bon Echo Park area for
a week usually in our Jeeps. We run the dual use logging/sled trails.
See the photos in my sig line link. I bought my 'glass body from a gent
named Brian just north of Kingston 8 years ago. He does fantastic work!
Hmm, I wonder. Here is his last known email address, maybe he can
hook you up? ppaq@sympatico.ca Feel free to use my name please.

If you had someone comfortable setting up a carb and timing, your Jeep
can be made to purr by disabling the emissions computer and just
manually setting it up. That is a free 25% seat of the pants power
boost raising the 'actual' top end to 4400 rpm and I am getting
11L/100km or about 23 mpg highway with mine.

Mine, as well as every one (more than half dozen) I have 'Nuttered' also
passed Ontario emissions on the ASM 2525 test with my last numbers
being: 589 NOx, 16 ppm HC and 0.11% CO. My CJ7 also doesn't need or
have a Cat on it!

You just need to add two new wires and connect the orange and purple
wires at the ignition module to the orange and purple at the distributor
to put the computer out of your misery. You then manually set the carb
mix screws with the stepper pins set in the center of their travel and
set the timing because it will be off about 15 deg.

It really is that simple...
http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/ignmods.htm

Hope this helps,

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

bllsht

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:38:17 -0500, "JEEPR" <jeepr@NOSPAMcanada.com>
wrote:

>Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
>failed 4 out of 5 test points.
>
>
>
>I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.
>
>Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
>move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
>engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
>position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
>circuit problem.
>
>With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
>activate the stepper motor to see if it works?

If the stepper motor doesn't move on startup, it's not because of the
O2. You can't actuate the stepper, but you can check resistance
through it using a multimeter.

There are 5 pins on the stepper motor. 2 on the top row and 3 on the
bottom. The center bottom pin receives 12v with the key on. Measure
resistance from that pin to each of the other 4.

The spec is from 50 to 100 ohms. My experience has been that the good
ones test right around 80 ohms. Over 100 means excessive resistance
and replacing the stepper will likely fix that problem. Lower than 50
indicates a shorted condition and the MCU will be toast as well.

Again, my experience has been that the bad ones always test WAY high
or WAY low (less than 5).

>
>
>
>Mike
>
>I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
>dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
>can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
>is a 14 day process barring custom delays.
>
>Every solution breeds new problems..
>
> 0||||||0
>
> MATT
>

bllsht

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:38:17 -0500, "JEEPR" <jeepr@NOSPAMcanada.com>
wrote:

>Well I bit the bullet and took it to crappy tire for the e-test and it
>failed 4 out of 5 test points.
>
>
>
>I pretty sure the original mech. said the pins were not moving on start up.
>
>Even with an input causing only open loop operation, the pins should still
>move. It should also complete the initialization process when you crank the
>engine. That is driving the pins full rich, then back to "centered"
>position. If it does this, you can pretty much eliminate a stepper motor
>circuit problem.
>
>With that it could be the stepper motor? Or O2 sensor? Is there a way to
>activate the stepper motor to see if it works?

If the stepper motor doesn't move on startup, it's not because of the
O2. You can't actuate the stepper, but you can check resistance
through it using a multimeter.

There are 5 pins on the stepper motor. 2 on the top row and 3 on the
bottom. The center bottom pin receives 12v with the key on. Measure
resistance from that pin to each of the other 4.

The spec is from 50 to 100 ohms. My experience has been that the good
ones test right around 80 ohms. Over 100 means excessive resistance
and replacing the stepper will likely fix that problem. Lower than 50
indicates a shorted condition and the MCU will be toast as well.

Again, my experience has been that the bad ones always test WAY high
or WAY low (less than 5).

>
>
>
>Mike
>
>I'm in the Quinte area. Is there any where to buy a recondition MCU. The
>dealer looked for a used one but had no luck. I have looked on the net and
>can send it to the states and have it reconditioned for $200 US, but that
>is a 14 day process barring custom delays.
>
>Every solution breeds new problems..
>
> 0||||||0
>
> MATT
>

JEEPR

> Only one more E test too eh. Too bad it messed up just then.

New rules, vehicles 1988 or newer have to be tested every 2 years.

Copy and paste.

1988 vehicles -- which require emissions tests in 2007 -- will need to be
tested again in 2009 and every two years after that for registration
renewal. Similarly, 1989 models will require testing in 2008 and every two
years after that. As well, the requirement for a valid Drive Clean pass for
ownership transfer will continue to apply to 1988 and newer models.

Loks like they are really trying to force us off the road.

JEEPR

> Only one more E test too eh. Too bad it messed up just then.

New rules, vehicles 1988 or newer have to be tested every 2 years.

Copy and paste.

1988 vehicles -- which require emissions tests in 2007 -- will need to be
tested again in 2009 and every two years after that for registration
renewal. Similarly, 1989 models will require testing in 2008 and every two
years after that. As well, the requirement for a valid Drive Clean pass for
ownership transfer will continue to apply to 1988 and newer models.

Loks like they are really trying to force us off the road.

aarcuda69062

In article <tIwbj.3473$fr2.3100@read2.cgocable.net>,
"JEEPR" <jeepr@NOSPAMcanada.com> wrote:

> > Only one more E test too eh. Too bad it messed up just then.
>
> New rules, vehicles 1988 or newer have to be tested every 2 years.
>
> Copy and paste.
>
> 1988 vehicles -- which require emissions tests in 2007 -- will need to be
> tested again in 2009 and every two years after that for registration
> renewal. Similarly, 1989 models will require testing in 2008 and every two
> years after that. As well, the requirement for a valid Drive Clean pass for
> ownership transfer will continue to apply to 1988 and newer models.
>
> Loks like they are really trying to force us off the road.

How would that be?