reboot

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:28:06 -0400, reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:

>bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>
>other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
>repairs.
>
>daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
>trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
>not well at part throttle.
>
>so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
>the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
>out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
>put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
>carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
>jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
>full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>
>phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>
>so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
>three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>
>up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
>prices, no upselling etc.
>
>today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
>Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
>was on the trip.
>
>oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
>belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
>anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
>fixes.
>
>so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
>$108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
>ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>
>1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
>MAP Sensor $110
>Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
>Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>
>hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?
>
>replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes
>
>so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
>out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
>particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
>business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
>daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>
>i don't think he gets it.
>
>thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
>got home.
>
>reboot
>
>
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>
>
the shop is AE Autocare in Livonia and until now I have been very
happy with them.

my first job was a kid-car, a '95 escort with front brakes acting up.
took it in and they called me and said that the calipers were hanging
up on corroded pins. that for about $250 they could replace them or
for $100 they would take them apart and put the pins on a wire wheel
and put it back together with some good lube. i was delighted because
the car was only worth about $500 !!

i know the serp belt needs replacing, i'll do it when i replace the
cracked exhaust manifold. but i'll do that on my own time, not when
i'm leaving on a business trip and have about 20 minutes to give it a
quick once over and a lick and a promise.

in this case there wasn't a check engine light flashing and if i had
more time i would have gone to autozone and scanned it in the parking
lot.

he didn't offer (at least yet, I'm going to pick it up in a few
minutes) to drop the diagnostics. the bone i'm picking is 'standard
times' that don't vary by vehicle. on this tj it's really only a 5
minute job to repace the MAP sensor.

with some time available, i'm my own shade tree mechanic, i've got the
FSM (props to the alt.binaries.e-books.technical newsgroup) and basic
tools. just didn't have the chance this time with going out of town.

gripe done ... peace

reboot


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Big Tex

A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor

"XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
>
> Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Big Tex

A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor

"XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
>
> Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Big Tex

A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor

"XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
>
> Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Big Tex

A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor

"XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
>
> Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

aarcuda69062

In article <msime3dt173icbmb0b5keim00ruoj2gd07@4ax.com>,
reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:

> bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>
> other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
> repairs.
>
> daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
> trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
> not well at part throttle.
>
> so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
> the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
> out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
> put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
> carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
> jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
> full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>
> phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>
> so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
> three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>
> up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
> prices, no upselling etc.
>
> today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
> Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
> was on the trip.
>
> oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
> belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
> anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
> fixes.
>
> so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
> $108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
> ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>
> 1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
> MAP Sensor $110
> Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
> Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>
> hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?

Mitchell time is 1.4 hours for system diagnosis
You do the math on how many jobs it takes to break even on a 6-8
thousand dollar scanner.

> replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes

Mitchell time for MAP sensor replacement is .5 hours

> so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
> out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
> particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
> business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
> daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>
> i don't think he gets it.

I don't think you get it.

> thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
> got home.

Sucks having to pay for professional services, eh?

aarcuda69062

In article <msime3dt173icbmb0b5keim00ruoj2gd07@4ax.com>,
reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:

> bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>
> other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
> repairs.
>
> daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
> trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
> not well at part throttle.
>
> so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
> the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
> out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
> put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
> carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
> jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
> full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>
> phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>
> so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
> three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>
> up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
> prices, no upselling etc.
>
> today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
> Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
> was on the trip.
>
> oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
> belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
> anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
> fixes.
>
> so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
> $108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
> ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>
> 1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
> MAP Sensor $110
> Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
> Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>
> hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?

Mitchell time is 1.4 hours for system diagnosis
You do the math on how many jobs it takes to break even on a 6-8
thousand dollar scanner.

> replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes

Mitchell time for MAP sensor replacement is .5 hours

> so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
> out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
> particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
> business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
> daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>
> i don't think he gets it.

I don't think you get it.

> thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
> got home.

Sucks having to pay for professional services, eh?

aarcuda69062

In article <msime3dt173icbmb0b5keim00ruoj2gd07@4ax.com>,
reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:

> bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>
> other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
> repairs.
>
> daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
> trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
> not well at part throttle.
>
> so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
> the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
> out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
> put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
> carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
> jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
> full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>
> phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>
> so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
> three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>
> up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
> prices, no upselling etc.
>
> today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
> Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
> was on the trip.
>
> oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
> belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
> anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
> fixes.
>
> so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
> $108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
> ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>
> 1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
> MAP Sensor $110
> Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
> Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>
> hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?

Mitchell time is 1.4 hours for system diagnosis
You do the math on how many jobs it takes to break even on a 6-8
thousand dollar scanner.

> replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes

Mitchell time for MAP sensor replacement is .5 hours

> so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
> out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
> particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
> business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
> daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>
> i don't think he gets it.

I don't think you get it.

> thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
> got home.

Sucks having to pay for professional services, eh?

aarcuda69062

In article <msime3dt173icbmb0b5keim00ruoj2gd07@4ax.com>,
reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:

> bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>
> other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
> repairs.
>
> daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
> trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
> not well at part throttle.
>
> so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
> the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
> out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
> put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
> carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
> jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
> full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>
> phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>
> so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
> three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>
> up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
> prices, no upselling etc.
>
> today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
> Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
> was on the trip.
>
> oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
> belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
> anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
> fixes.
>
> so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
> $108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
> ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>
> 1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
> MAP Sensor $110
> Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
> Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>
> hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?

Mitchell time is 1.4 hours for system diagnosis
You do the math on how many jobs it takes to break even on a 6-8
thousand dollar scanner.

> replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes

Mitchell time for MAP sensor replacement is .5 hours

> so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
> out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
> particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
> business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
> daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>
> i don't think he gets it.

I don't think you get it.

> thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
> got home.

Sucks having to pay for professional services, eh?

aarcuda69062

In article <P7XGi.2933$ZA5.999@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
> mechanics aren't,

A ridiculous statement with no basis in fact.

Nowdays, this factory training amounts to nothing more than the
mechanic sitting at a computer terminal in the dealership playing
'guess the answer.' If real live instructor training, odds are
it's a contract teacher from/at a local technical college.
<rolls eyes>

> ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor

Dealerships charge more per hour because their overhead costs are
higher.