billy ray

You can't always tell if the information you send actually gets to the OP.

Use of non-existent e-address are quite common to the NG. I have not
received any reply to a question from him so I cannot say that he received
it.

Your point is well taken, if he has access to the manual then he has a good
reference of which the NG is unaware.




"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC6C9C.9815CF0C@sympatico.ca...
> Billy Ray,
>
> It would be useful to the thread if all the relevant info was at least
> referred to. Posting the manual is overkill but everyone knowing the
> fact that he has the data would save a lot of trying to explain some
> specifics to him.
>
> When strange crap stats happening, we all could benefit by the process
> of trying to figure it out all together rather than ten different things
> being posted and acted on unknown to everyone else. It then can get
> extremely confusing, especially for the poor OP.
>
> Mike
>
> billy ray wrote:
>>
>> I sent him, directly, some relevant pages from the service manual in PDF
>> format. Should I have typed them all out and posted the information
>> here?
>> How would I have handled the diagrams?
>>
>> I told him I, as a non-mechanic, suspected the caliper but that more
>> seasoned heads would offer more expert advise.
>>
>> I also suggested obtaining a build sheet which is something I would
>> suggest
>> to anyone who wanted to know what components were installed at the
>> factory.
>>
>> "Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:tbZuf.47$Kp.46@southeast.rr.com...
>> > Agreed, his prop valve is fine. We should find out more soon, if he
>> > posts
>> > his results.
>> >
>> > Spdloader
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:43BC5585.340892D@sympatico.ca...
>> >> Well, I do have my moments, LOL.
>> >>
>> >> I was just a bit frustrated this morning wading through 4 days of
>> >> mostly
>> >> crap for posts, then figure ah, one to answer only to find out nope,
>> >> been done on the quiet....
>> >>
>> >> His brake failure light is/was on for a reason. It means it sees a
>> >> pressure difference between the front and rear brakes. I have never
>> >> heard of directly bleeding a modern prop valve. If they can't be bled
>> >> at the wheels by holding the pin or if they are the 'new' ones with no
>> >> pin, then if they fail, they are dead. I doubt his has failed.
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> Spdloader wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Privately, I advised the OP it could be either the caliper or a brake
>> >>> line,
>> >>> then I reposted the same advice to the group, so there'd be a record
>> >>> of
>> >>> it
>> >>> for anyone else who needed it. Somehow, the text regarding the hose
>> >>> didn't
>> >>> paste.
>> >>>
>> >>> That's my fault for poor editing.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since brake hoses degrade slowly, and not usually immediately, I
>> >>> suspect
>> >>> the
>> >>> caliper. The caliper stuck in the bore the moment he pushed it back
>> >>> with
>> >>> a C
>> >>> clamp to facilitate the new pads. Evidence suggests the caliper, but
>> >>> I
>> >>> would
>> >>> never rule out the hose. Neither one of those problems will make the
>> >>> proportioning valve switch over though, so I suspect another problem
>> >>> as
>> >>> well, or something else was done the OP hasn't told us yet.
>> >>>
>> >>> Nothing further has been communicated. Everyone should be up to speed
>> >>> now,
>> >>>
>> >>> ...and your new knick name is "Hair-trigger Mike".
>> >>>
>> >>> Where I come from in the military, everyone gets a knick name, but
>> >>> you
>> >>> have
>> >>> to earn it.
>> >>>
>> >>> lol
>> >>>
>> >>> Spdloader
>> >>>
>> >>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>> news:43BC2D86.74038EBB@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> > Sorry to be snappy, but I have been involved in a few fixes that
>> >>> > happened partly via private emails and they all took way too long
>> >>> > to
>> >>> > get
>> >>> > resolved with way too many repeated guesses by folks and bad advise
>> >>> > given out because only half the story was public....
>> >>> >
>> >>> > That 'really' defeats the purpose of the newsgroup.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > So I'll ask again nicely.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Did the gent get it fixed because it was a failed brake line?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Mike
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Spdloader wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Is everybody on a hair trigger in this newsgroup?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Turning the other cheek, I'll say this:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I invited him to contact me via private email because some folks
>> >>> >> are
>> >>> >> more
>> >>> >> comfortable that way.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> It wasn't my intent to torque anyone off, sorry if I did.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Spdloader
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>> >> news:43BC08B0.A34A0D98@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> >> > That doesn't do the rest of us ----.....
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > If someone wants help, what use is taking folks guesses to
>> >>> >> > private
>> >>> >> > email?
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > That just causes a lot of repeats guesses and wasted time.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > I 'guess' he must have it fixed by now too?
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Mike
>> >>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>> >> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> >>> >> > Aug./05
>> >>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
>> >>> >> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Spdloader wrote:
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> We discussed that too in a private email.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> Spdloader
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> "Old Crow" <walliscrow@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >>> >> >> news:kganr1h6mgpn4rrf5aq9abjqdi4361md1b@4ax.com...
>> >>> >> >> > On 3 Jan 2006 17:04:27 -0800, "Jolley" <mormonator@gmail.com>
>> >>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >>I was able to 'bleed' the proportioner valve. I lessened the
>> >>> >> >> >>bolt at
>> >>> >> >> >>the end (with the hole in it) and took out the guts, cleaned
>> >>> >> >> >>and
>> >>> >> >> >>reinstalled. Then I left the nut only partially screwed in
>> >>> >> >> >>and
>> >>> >> >> >>had
>> >>> >> >> >>wifey pump the brakes to get the air out and then I tightened
>> >>> >> >> >>the
>> >>> >> >> >>bolt
>> >>> >> >> >>up.
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >>To my Joy, the brake light is now off! Unfortunately the
>> >>> >> >> >>brake
>> >>> >> >> >>still
>> >>> >> >> >>drags. I jacked each front wheel up and found that really
>> >>> >> >> >>only
>> >>> >> >> >>the
>> >>> >> >> >>right side is dragging and the left feels about what I would
>> >>> >> >> >>expect
>> >>> >> >> >>with new brakes... I'm beginning to suspect a bad
>> >>> >> >> >>caliper/piston.
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >>Using a C clamp I can press the caliper open just a little
>> >>> >> >> >>more
>> >>> >> >> >>and
>> >>> >> >> >>the
>> >>> >> >> >>rotor will spin reasonably well, but by the time I replace
>> >>> >> >> >>the
>> >>> >> >> >>MC
>> >>> >> >> >>cover
>> >>> >> >> >>and put the wheel back on its dragging heavily again.
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >>One last thought: could the new brakes be just a little too
>> >>> >> >> >>thick?
>> >>> >> >> >>With
>> >>> >> >> >>the tire on I loosened the caliper bolts slightly and the
>> >>> >> >> >>drag
>> >>> >> >> >>was
>> >>> >> >> >>alleviated. (Its a thought anyway)
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > First thing I'd look at is the flex hose to the sticking
>> >>> >> >> > caliper.
>> >>> >> >> > They
>> >>> >> >> > can come apart inside and hold pressure on the caliper.
>> >>> >> >> > Surprised
>> >>> >> >> > this
>> >>> >> >> > thread went this long with nobody suggesting that, but the
>> >>> >> >> > real
>> >>> >> >> > clue
>> >>> >> >> > is that only one side is sticking.
>> >>> >> >> > --
>> >>> >> >> > Old Crow
>> >>> >> >> > '82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl"
>> >>> >> >> > '74 XLH chopper(somebody else's baby now)
>> >>> >> >> > BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM, DOF#51, DH#2
>> >>> >> >> > "There's only 1 RE"
>> >
>> >

Jolley

Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
thanks)

The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.

As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
actual line or caliper

In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
wheels (those were replaced with the pads).

When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
proportioning valve.

Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
because after that the brake light went off - sweet.

I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
on it to make sure this is the case.

So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.

One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
(I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
ensure the rubbing does not return.

Thanks for all the help!

Jolley

Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
thanks)

The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.

As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
actual line or caliper

In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
wheels (those were replaced with the pads).

When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
proportioning valve.

Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
because after that the brake light went off - sweet.

I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
on it to make sure this is the case.

So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.

One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
(I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
ensure the rubbing does not return.

Thanks for all the help!

Jolley

Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
thanks)

The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.

As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
actual line or caliper

In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
wheels (those were replaced with the pads).

When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
proportioning valve.

Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
because after that the brake light went off - sweet.

I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
on it to make sure this is the case.

So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.

One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
(I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
ensure the rubbing does not return.

Thanks for all the help!

Mike Romain

Thanks for the update.

As far as the lay of the line goes, well..... You really don't want to
hear my opinion on the fix, but here goes...

The line has the banjo bolt at the caliper that can fit with either face
against the caliper. At the other end is a fitting that fits into a
square hole and is held in with a clip.

If you put the banjo in and the clip end in and the loop hangs toward
the wheel, they need to be rotated 180 degrees and put back in. This
will make the loop flop the other way. Sometimes it is just the clip
end needing a 90 degree rotation to make the loop flop over.

I have seen/had that happen before and cussed it all the way while
changing it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Jolley wrote:
>
> Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
> thanks)
>
> The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
> up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
> figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.
>
> As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
> dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
> right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
> actual line or caliper
>
> In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
> brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
> the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
> wheels (those were replaced with the pads).
>
> When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
> brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
> was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
> system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
> indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
> problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
> valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
> proportioning valve.
>
> Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
> the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
> air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
> 'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
> but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
> because after that the brake light went off - sweet.
>
> I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
> because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
> on it to make sure this is the case.
>
> So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.
>
> One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
> (I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
> local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
> from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
> was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
> into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
> had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
> these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
> ensure the rubbing does not return.
>
> Thanks for all the help!

Mike Romain

Thanks for the update.

As far as the lay of the line goes, well..... You really don't want to
hear my opinion on the fix, but here goes...

The line has the banjo bolt at the caliper that can fit with either face
against the caliper. At the other end is a fitting that fits into a
square hole and is held in with a clip.

If you put the banjo in and the clip end in and the loop hangs toward
the wheel, they need to be rotated 180 degrees and put back in. This
will make the loop flop the other way. Sometimes it is just the clip
end needing a 90 degree rotation to make the loop flop over.

I have seen/had that happen before and cussed it all the way while
changing it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Jolley wrote:
>
> Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
> thanks)
>
> The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
> up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
> figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.
>
> As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
> dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
> right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
> actual line or caliper
>
> In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
> brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
> the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
> wheels (those were replaced with the pads).
>
> When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
> brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
> was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
> system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
> indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
> problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
> valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
> proportioning valve.
>
> Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
> the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
> air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
> 'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
> but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
> because after that the brake light went off - sweet.
>
> I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
> because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
> on it to make sure this is the case.
>
> So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.
>
> One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
> (I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
> local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
> from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
> was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
> into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
> had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
> these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
> ensure the rubbing does not return.
>
> Thanks for all the help!

Mike Romain

Thanks for the update.

As far as the lay of the line goes, well..... You really don't want to
hear my opinion on the fix, but here goes...

The line has the banjo bolt at the caliper that can fit with either face
against the caliper. At the other end is a fitting that fits into a
square hole and is held in with a clip.

If you put the banjo in and the clip end in and the loop hangs toward
the wheel, they need to be rotated 180 degrees and put back in. This
will make the loop flop the other way. Sometimes it is just the clip
end needing a 90 degree rotation to make the loop flop over.

I have seen/had that happen before and cussed it all the way while
changing it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Jolley wrote:
>
> Okay, sorry it took me so long to post my results (BR, got the email,
> thanks)
>
> The calipers did look a little sad, and since I was going to be 'all
> up in there' with the fluid and what not changing the lines, I
> figured what the heck - changed both front rubber lines and calipers.
>
> As you can imagine the brakes are working VERY well now. No more
> dragging and decent stopping power (best you can get out of a Cherokee
> right?) Sorry I can't tell you definitively if the problem was the
> actual line or caliper
>
> In regards to the BRAKE light being on, when I first surveyed the
> brakes the reservoir for the rear brakes was dry. Later I discovered
> the problem appeared to be from two slowly leaking pistons on the rear
> wheels (those were replaced with the pads).
>
> When I put all new fluid in the lines I did it by bleeding out the
> brakes and adding new fluid until the fluid coming out of the bleeders
> was clean and new. I figured this would get rid of all the air in the
> system but the brake light stayed on. *Haynes* says this usually
> indicates one of two things: non functioning parking brake switch or
> problems with the proportioning valve (either air in the valve or a bad
> valve). The parking brake switched seemed to check out so I figured the
> proportioning valve.
>
> Since I have no pin to push or pull on the valve I took it apart and
> the rubber seal inside seemed to be stuck. I figure this was keeping
> air in the valve. While putting it back together I figured out how to
> 'bleed' it (I'm not sure this is the technically correct thing to do,
> but it worked for me). This must have taken the air out of the valve
> because after that the brake light went off - sweet.
>
> I am 'assuming' that the only reason the rear reservoir went dry was
> because of the leaky pistons on the drums. Of course I'll keep my eye
> on it to make sure this is the case.
>
> So there we have it! all is well in Cherokee brakevile.
>
> One last question: after installing the new calipers and rubber lines
> (I wanted stainless, but they only had them for lifted rigs at the
> local 4X4 shops) I was doing my test drive and I heard a horrible noise
> from the front right wheel on right turns. I found that the new line
> was rubbing on the rim during turns. I was able to push it away - back
> into the wheel well - and I haven't had the issue since. The old lines
> had metal (or composite?) casings right in the critical 'rub' area, but
> these new ones only have ... more rubber. Wondering what I should do to
> ensure the rubbing does not return.
>
> Thanks for all the help!