But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

 

But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

 

kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'm curious, what manual do you have that does that?


[original symptom: Starter spins up but does not engage flywheel]
[advice: bench test the starter]

> Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
> Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
> on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
> over.

OK, back up a bit. How do you know you've plenty of amps at the
battery? How did you test it? How do you know that current is getting
to the ends of the cables? I'm not jumping on you, I'm trying to get
all the details straight in my head. I've got the same setup as you:
`79 CJ, 258.


> Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
> new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
> having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?

How did you connect them up? Did you use jumper cables directly on
battery posts or did you clamp them onto the vehicle's battery terminal
clamps? I ask because there could be enough crud between the post and
the clamp to allow enough juice for, say, the radio but not enough to
power up a high-amp device like a starter motor. If you tried to test
it with a battery charger there's likely not enough power available to
turn the motor over.


> New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
> I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
> the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
> lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
> difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
> hints, etc?

Yep. There's six connections that you need to physically remove, clean
and replace: Each battery post clamp and the lug end of each of those
two cables, plus the lug ends of the jumper that runs to the starter.

The negative cable runs to a bolt on the engine block, this ensures
there's enough ampacity on the ground side to power the starter. If the
negative cable attaches anywhere else move it to the proper place, a
threaded hole in a casting boss above and forward of the starter motor.
(or anywhere else on the block, but /only/ on the block). Shine up
the iron and the copper lug end with some sand paper. Rust is your enemy.

The positive battery cable ends at the starter relay bolted to the right
inner fender. The main positive connection to the vehicle harness should
also be on that post. Clean it well and tighten - use two wrenches
because you don't want to twist the post and break the connections
inside. The other large post holds the jumper to the starter motor.
Clean, etc. The two smaller posts on the starter relay are a signal
line from the ignition switch to tell the relay when to close and feed
power to the starter and a line that feeds raw battery power to the [+]
side of the coil during starting. When you release the key from [start]
to [run] the [+] side of the coil is fed about 7V through a resistor in
the harness.

All of the vehicle B+ power comes through the wires and cable on that
first post. If it isn't a clean, tight connection you won't have
lights, accessories or a starter. All of the vehicle B- power goes
through that engine block connection.


> I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
> dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
> fine.

There's nothing in the starter motor circuit that's fused. The only
exception would be an after market harness with a master system fuse but
if that popped you'd have no usable power anywhere.


> If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
> turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
> road to my repair guy.

OK, back up a moment. Your original symptom was that the starter spun
up but wouldn't engage the flywheel. My original thought was that you
had something going on that would allow enough current to spin the motor
but not enough to pull in the Bendix drive. Under that little
Twinkie-shaped metal cover on your `79 Ford (yep, GM steering column,
Ford starting) starter is a magnetic arm that is pulled in when the
field coil is energized. When it pulls in a fork pushes the drive gear
out to engage with the flywheel ring gear -- and that's what wasn't
happening on your original starter. There's also a set of large contact
points under there, I don't recall if they open or close when the drive
extends. You might look there and see if they're clean.

And, as Mike suggested, check your ground straps. There's one from the
back of the engine block to the firewall to ground the tub and another
that bridges the left engine mount from block to frame, and the battery
cable _must_ go to the block on your engine, don't rely on the ground
straps to carry starting current -- because they can't. But first,
check those battery connections.

Let us know how you make out.

 

kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'm curious, what manual do you have that does that?


[original symptom: Starter spins up but does not engage flywheel]
[advice: bench test the starter]

> Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
> Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
> on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
> over.

OK, back up a bit. How do you know you've plenty of amps at the
battery? How did you test it? How do you know that current is getting
to the ends of the cables? I'm not jumping on you, I'm trying to get
all the details straight in my head. I've got the same setup as you:
`79 CJ, 258.


> Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
> new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
> having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?

How did you connect them up? Did you use jumper cables directly on
battery posts or did you clamp them onto the vehicle's battery terminal
clamps? I ask because there could be enough crud between the post and
the clamp to allow enough juice for, say, the radio but not enough to
power up a high-amp device like a starter motor. If you tried to test
it with a battery charger there's likely not enough power available to
turn the motor over.


> New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
> I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
> the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
> lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
> difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
> hints, etc?

Yep. There's six connections that you need to physically remove, clean
and replace: Each battery post clamp and the lug end of each of those
two cables, plus the lug ends of the jumper that runs to the starter.

The negative cable runs to a bolt on the engine block, this ensures
there's enough ampacity on the ground side to power the starter. If the
negative cable attaches anywhere else move it to the proper place, a
threaded hole in a casting boss above and forward of the starter motor.
(or anywhere else on the block, but /only/ on the block). Shine up
the iron and the copper lug end with some sand paper. Rust is your enemy.

The positive battery cable ends at the starter relay bolted to the right
inner fender. The main positive connection to the vehicle harness should
also be on that post. Clean it well and tighten - use two wrenches
because you don't want to twist the post and break the connections
inside. The other large post holds the jumper to the starter motor.
Clean, etc. The two smaller posts on the starter relay are a signal
line from the ignition switch to tell the relay when to close and feed
power to the starter and a line that feeds raw battery power to the [+]
side of the coil during starting. When you release the key from [start]
to [run] the [+] side of the coil is fed about 7V through a resistor in
the harness.

All of the vehicle B+ power comes through the wires and cable on that
first post. If it isn't a clean, tight connection you won't have
lights, accessories or a starter. All of the vehicle B- power goes
through that engine block connection.


> I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
> dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
> fine.

There's nothing in the starter motor circuit that's fused. The only
exception would be an after market harness with a master system fuse but
if that popped you'd have no usable power anywhere.


> If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
> turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
> road to my repair guy.

OK, back up a moment. Your original symptom was that the starter spun
up but wouldn't engage the flywheel. My original thought was that you
had something going on that would allow enough current to spin the motor
but not enough to pull in the Bendix drive. Under that little
Twinkie-shaped metal cover on your `79 Ford (yep, GM steering column,
Ford starting) starter is a magnetic arm that is pulled in when the
field coil is energized. When it pulls in a fork pushes the drive gear
out to engage with the flywheel ring gear -- and that's what wasn't
happening on your original starter. There's also a set of large contact
points under there, I don't recall if they open or close when the drive
extends. You might look there and see if they're clean.

And, as Mike suggested, check your ground straps. There's one from the
back of the engine block to the firewall to ground the tub and another
that bridges the left engine mount from block to frame, and the battery
cable _must_ go to the block on your engine, don't rely on the ground
straps to carry starting current -- because they can't. But first,
check those battery connections.

Let us know how you make out.

 

kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'm curious, what manual do you have that does that?


[original symptom: Starter spins up but does not engage flywheel]
[advice: bench test the starter]

> Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
> Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
> on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
> over.

OK, back up a bit. How do you know you've plenty of amps at the
battery? How did you test it? How do you know that current is getting
to the ends of the cables? I'm not jumping on you, I'm trying to get
all the details straight in my head. I've got the same setup as you:
`79 CJ, 258.


> Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
> new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
> having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?

How did you connect them up? Did you use jumper cables directly on
battery posts or did you clamp them onto the vehicle's battery terminal
clamps? I ask because there could be enough crud between the post and
the clamp to allow enough juice for, say, the radio but not enough to
power up a high-amp device like a starter motor. If you tried to test
it with a battery charger there's likely not enough power available to
turn the motor over.


> New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
> I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
> the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
> lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
> difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
> hints, etc?

Yep. There's six connections that you need to physically remove, clean
and replace: Each battery post clamp and the lug end of each of those
two cables, plus the lug ends of the jumper that runs to the starter.

The negative cable runs to a bolt on the engine block, this ensures
there's enough ampacity on the ground side to power the starter. If the
negative cable attaches anywhere else move it to the proper place, a
threaded hole in a casting boss above and forward of the starter motor.
(or anywhere else on the block, but /only/ on the block). Shine up
the iron and the copper lug end with some sand paper. Rust is your enemy.

The positive battery cable ends at the starter relay bolted to the right
inner fender. The main positive connection to the vehicle harness should
also be on that post. Clean it well and tighten - use two wrenches
because you don't want to twist the post and break the connections
inside. The other large post holds the jumper to the starter motor.
Clean, etc. The two smaller posts on the starter relay are a signal
line from the ignition switch to tell the relay when to close and feed
power to the starter and a line that feeds raw battery power to the [+]
side of the coil during starting. When you release the key from [start]
to [run] the [+] side of the coil is fed about 7V through a resistor in
the harness.

All of the vehicle B+ power comes through the wires and cable on that
first post. If it isn't a clean, tight connection you won't have
lights, accessories or a starter. All of the vehicle B- power goes
through that engine block connection.


> I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
> dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
> fine.

There's nothing in the starter motor circuit that's fused. The only
exception would be an after market harness with a master system fuse but
if that popped you'd have no usable power anywhere.


> If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
> turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
> road to my repair guy.

OK, back up a moment. Your original symptom was that the starter spun
up but wouldn't engage the flywheel. My original thought was that you
had something going on that would allow enough current to spin the motor
but not enough to pull in the Bendix drive. Under that little
Twinkie-shaped metal cover on your `79 Ford (yep, GM steering column,
Ford starting) starter is a magnetic arm that is pulled in when the
field coil is energized. When it pulls in a fork pushes the drive gear
out to engage with the flywheel ring gear -- and that's what wasn't
happening on your original starter. There's also a set of large contact
points under there, I don't recall if they open or close when the drive
extends. You might look there and see if they're clean.

And, as Mike suggested, check your ground straps. There's one from the
back of the engine block to the firewall to ground the tub and another
that bridges the left engine mount from block to frame, and the battery
cable _must_ go to the block on your engine, don't rely on the ground
straps to carry starting current -- because they can't. But first,
check those battery connections.

Let us know how you make out.

 

But the 1947 GMC six is thirty two valve.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Dave Milne wrote:
>
> But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

 

But the 1947 GMC six is thirty two valve.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Dave Milne wrote:
>
> But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

 

But the 1947 GMC six is thirty two valve.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Dave Milne wrote:
>
> But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

 

kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>>
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'd love to see a link to a URL where a scanned copy of that page saying
it is a "V-6" can be viewed. Besides, it's not even a six valve engine,
it has twelve valves.
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL N6TAY
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/

 

kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>>kbrook007@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>>
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'd love to see a link to a URL where a scanned copy of that page saying
it is a "V-6" can be viewed. Besides, it's not even a six valve engine,
it has twelve valves.
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL N6TAY
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/