Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find
out - get it checked.

About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so
many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on
the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
"test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit
that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).

Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.

Terry.




"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> that implies the rest is shaky at best.
>
> Death wobble doesn't just happen!
>
> Something is either broken or not built correctly.
>
> You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> conclusion, it is built wrong.
>
> I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
Dynatrac.
> > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
track
> > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> >
> > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> > to my rig.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > >
> > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
guessed.
> > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > straighat
> > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> > turn on
> > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > difference in
> > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > > Caster angle.
> > > >
> > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
the
> > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> > during
> > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
angle.
> > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
right. Of
> > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
change
> > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > >
> > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> > joints,
> > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
bit
> > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> > lesser
> > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
will
> > search
> > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> > is
> > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
Uturn,
> > or a
> > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> > stall.
> > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see
if
> > the
> > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> > back
> > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> > to
> > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > >
> > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
so
> > the
> > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > pretty
> > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
for
> > now.
> > > >
> > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
push-pull-raised-tire
> > test
> > > > and
> > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
get
> > the
> > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> > be a
> > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > > >
> > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
link to
> > the
> > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> > a
> > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > > will
> > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > together
> > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
Dana60.
> > But
> > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > Terry.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > stabalizer
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
(If I
> > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
been
> > > > > suggested
> > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > > test.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> > Taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > bushings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
everything
> > else
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
end is
> > new
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> > ends,
> > > > drag
> > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> > tight.
> > > > I
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > > I'll
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim
it
> > up if
> > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW
in
> > that
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > thought.
> > > > If
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
frame to
> > the
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
for a
> > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
joint or
> > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
some
> > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and
no
> > DW
> > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> > the
> > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > direction.
> > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > looking
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
to
> > where
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
tire
> > then
> > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > because
> > > > it
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
spiral
> > > > > downward
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > adjustable
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
shims,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > > positions
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > adjustment
> > > > as
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> > on
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > serious
> > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> > the
> > > > > test
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
off
> > the
> > > > > ground
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> > bottom,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> > in
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> > wheel
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
play
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
all of
> > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > replacing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
the
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > like-parts
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
upper
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Yep. I'll find out this week if the caster is right.

Thanks Roy.

Terry.


"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:vH4_b.32$pT1.24075@news.uswest.net...
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn
on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference
in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or
a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be
a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Yep. I'll find out this week if the caster is right.

Thanks Roy.

Terry.


"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:vH4_b.32$pT1.24075@news.uswest.net...
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn
on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference
in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or
a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be
a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Yep. I'll find out this week if the caster is right.

Thanks Roy.

Terry.


"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:vH4_b.32$pT1.24075@news.uswest.net...
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn
on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference
in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or
a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be
a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

My stabalizer is attached to the tie rod that runs between the tires, it is
not attached to the rod that connects to the Pitman Arm. It is clamped to
the axle tube near the pumpkin, and to the tie rod near the left tire. This
does not apear to be as described in the FSM.

I am not sure why you have a trackbar, and I wonder if you really mean the
anti sway bar. After watching your responses, I don't think you are confused
about the trackbar and the swaybar, but I just had to mention it, just in
case ...

In any case, what you describe takes me back to either an incorrect Caster
Angle, or worn parts, most notably the ball joints or tie rod ends, or any
combination of these. Since you have a "new" D60, I have to wonder if the
Caster was set properly. there are shims (that look similar to a door-stop
that one might wedge under a door to hold it open), that can help you to set
this angle.



"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ma4_b.3563$yZ1.3102@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right.
Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link
to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If
I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end
is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame
to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for
a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint
or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all
of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

My stabalizer is attached to the tie rod that runs between the tires, it is
not attached to the rod that connects to the Pitman Arm. It is clamped to
the axle tube near the pumpkin, and to the tie rod near the left tire. This
does not apear to be as described in the FSM.

I am not sure why you have a trackbar, and I wonder if you really mean the
anti sway bar. After watching your responses, I don't think you are confused
about the trackbar and the swaybar, but I just had to mention it, just in
case ...

In any case, what you describe takes me back to either an incorrect Caster
Angle, or worn parts, most notably the ball joints or tie rod ends, or any
combination of these. Since you have a "new" D60, I have to wonder if the
Caster was set properly. there are shims (that look similar to a door-stop
that one might wedge under a door to hold it open), that can help you to set
this angle.



"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ma4_b.3563$yZ1.3102@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right.
Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link
to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If
I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end
is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame
to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for
a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint
or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all
of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

My stabalizer is attached to the tie rod that runs between the tires, it is
not attached to the rod that connects to the Pitman Arm. It is clamped to
the axle tube near the pumpkin, and to the tie rod near the left tire. This
does not apear to be as described in the FSM.

I am not sure why you have a trackbar, and I wonder if you really mean the
anti sway bar. After watching your responses, I don't think you are confused
about the trackbar and the swaybar, but I just had to mention it, just in
case ...

In any case, what you describe takes me back to either an incorrect Caster
Angle, or worn parts, most notably the ball joints or tie rod ends, or any
combination of these. Since you have a "new" D60, I have to wonder if the
Caster was set properly. there are shims (that look similar to a door-stop
that one might wedge under a door to hold it open), that can help you to set
this angle.



"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ma4_b.3563$yZ1.3102@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right.
Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link
to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If
I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end
is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame
to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for
a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint
or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all
of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar will
have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
harmonic vibration that we call DW.

The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.

But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not working
properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and mask
such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse, all
hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.

I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of steering
parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.

BTW,
Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
and he is right far more often than he is wrong.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
find
> out - get it checked.
>
> About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
so
> many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
> But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
> track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
> frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in
on
> the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
hit
> that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
> thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
> swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
>
> Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
>
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> >
> > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> >
> > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> >
> > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> >
> > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> Dynatrac.
> > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> alright,
> > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
who
> have
> > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
> The
> > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
> with
> > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> track
> > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > >
> > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
I've
> > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
> comes
> > > to my rig.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > > >
> > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> guessed.
> > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
in
> > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > straighat
> > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
can
> > > turn on
> > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > difference in
> > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar
to
> the
> > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
> the
> > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
set
> > > during
> > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> angle.
> > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> right. Of
> > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> change
> > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
ball
> > > joints,
> > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
should
> be
> > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
> joint
> > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
> bit
> > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
than
> > > lesser
> > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> will
> > > search
> > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
> There
> > > is
> > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> Uturn,
> > > or a
> > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
parking
> > > stall.
> > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
see
> if
> > > the
> > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
Mode
> and
> > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
drive
> it
> > > back
> > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
> wants
> > > to
> > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
> so
> > > the
> > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > > pretty
> > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
> for
> > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> push-pull-raised-tire
> > > test
> > > > > and
> > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
> get
> > > the
> > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
> would
> > > be a
> > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
> off,
> > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
> other?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> link to
> > > the
> > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
> felt
> > > a
> > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
it,
> and
> > > > > will
> > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > together
> > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> Dana60.
> > > But
> > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > stabalizer
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
> (If I
> > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> been
> > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
with
> > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> confirmation
> > > > > test.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on
to
> see
> > > if
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
test.
> > > Taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > > bushings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> everything
> > > else
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
> end is
> > > new
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod
&
> > > ends,
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
and
> > > tight.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> happens.
> > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
shim
> it
> > > up if
> > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
DW
> in
> > > that
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > thought.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
the
> old
> > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> frame to
> > > the
> > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
tie
> rod
> > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
stabilzier"
> for
> > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
> for a
> > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
make
> the
> > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
wants
> to
> > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> joint or
> > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
> some
> > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
and
> no
> > > DW
> > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> suspect
> > > the
> > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
> ahead,
> > > and
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > > looking
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
> to
> > > where
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
> tire
> > > then
> > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > > because
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> spiral
> > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > adjustable
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> shims,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way
it
> > > > > positions
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > adjustment
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
> angle
> > > on
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
> other
> > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
Joint
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > > serious
> > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> passes
> > > the
> > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
> off
> > > the
> > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
the
> > > bottom,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
not
> move
> > > in
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
steering
> > > wheel
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
> play
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
> all of
> > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > replacing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
> the
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > like-parts
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
> only
> > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> upper
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar will
have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
harmonic vibration that we call DW.

The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.

But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not working
properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and mask
such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse, all
hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.

I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of steering
parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.

BTW,
Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
and he is right far more often than he is wrong.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
find
> out - get it checked.
>
> About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
so
> many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
> But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
> track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
> frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in
on
> the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
hit
> that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
> thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
> swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
>
> Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
>
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> >
> > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> >
> > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> >
> > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> >
> > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> Dynatrac.
> > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> alright,
> > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
who
> have
> > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
> The
> > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
> with
> > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> track
> > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > >
> > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
I've
> > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
> comes
> > > to my rig.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > > >
> > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> guessed.
> > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
in
> > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > straighat
> > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
can
> > > turn on
> > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > difference in
> > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar
to
> the
> > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
> the
> > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
set
> > > during
> > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> angle.
> > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> right. Of
> > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> change
> > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
ball
> > > joints,
> > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
should
> be
> > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
> joint
> > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
> bit
> > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
than
> > > lesser
> > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> will
> > > search
> > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
> There
> > > is
> > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> Uturn,
> > > or a
> > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
parking
> > > stall.
> > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
see
> if
> > > the
> > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
Mode
> and
> > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
drive
> it
> > > back
> > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
> wants
> > > to
> > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
> so
> > > the
> > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > > pretty
> > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
> for
> > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> push-pull-raised-tire
> > > test
> > > > > and
> > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
> get
> > > the
> > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
> would
> > > be a
> > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
> off,
> > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
> other?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> link to
> > > the
> > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
> felt
> > > a
> > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
it,
> and
> > > > > will
> > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > together
> > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> Dana60.
> > > But
> > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > stabalizer
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
> (If I
> > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> been
> > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
with
> > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> confirmation
> > > > > test.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on
to
> see
> > > if
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
test.
> > > Taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > > bushings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> everything
> > > else
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
> end is
> > > new
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod
&
> > > ends,
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
and
> > > tight.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> happens.
> > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
shim
> it
> > > up if
> > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
DW
> in
> > > that
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > thought.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
the
> old
> > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> frame to
> > > the
> > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
tie
> rod
> > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
stabilzier"
> for
> > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
> for a
> > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
make
> the
> > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
wants
> to
> > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> joint or
> > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
> some
> > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
and
> no
> > > DW
> > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> suspect
> > > the
> > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
> ahead,
> > > and
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > > looking
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
> to
> > > where
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
> tire
> > > then
> > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > > because
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> spiral
> > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > adjustable
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> shims,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way
it
> > > > > positions
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > adjustment
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
> angle
> > > on
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
> other
> > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
Joint
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > > serious
> > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> passes
> > > the
> > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
> off
> > > the
> > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
the
> > > bottom,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
not
> move
> > > in
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
steering
> > > wheel
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
> play
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
> all of
> > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > replacing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
> the
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > like-parts
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
> only
> > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> upper
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar will
have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
harmonic vibration that we call DW.

The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.

But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not working
properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and mask
such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse, all
hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.

I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of steering
parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.

BTW,
Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
and he is right far more often than he is wrong.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
find
> out - get it checked.
>
> About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
so
> many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
> But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
> track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
> frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in
on
> the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
hit
> that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
> thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
> swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
>
> Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
>
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> >
> > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> >
> > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> >
> > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> >
> > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> Dynatrac.
> > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> alright,
> > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
who
> have
> > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
> The
> > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
> with
> > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> track
> > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > >
> > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
I've
> > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
> comes
> > > to my rig.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > > >
> > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> guessed.
> > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
in
> > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > straighat
> > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
can
> > > turn on
> > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > difference in
> > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar
to
> the
> > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
> the
> > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
set
> > > during
> > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> angle.
> > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> right. Of
> > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> change
> > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
ball
> > > joints,
> > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
should
> be
> > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
> joint
> > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
> bit
> > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
than
> > > lesser
> > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> will
> > > search
> > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
> There
> > > is
> > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> Uturn,
> > > or a
> > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
parking
> > > stall.
> > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
see
> if
> > > the
> > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
Mode
> and
> > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
drive
> it
> > > back
> > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
> wants
> > > to
> > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
> so
> > > the
> > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > > pretty
> > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
> for
> > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> push-pull-raised-tire
> > > test
> > > > > and
> > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
> get
> > > the
> > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
> would
> > > be a
> > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
> off,
> > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
> other?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> link to
> > > the
> > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
> felt
> > > a
> > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
it,
> and
> > > > > will
> > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > together
> > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> Dana60.
> > > But
> > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > stabalizer
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
> (If I
> > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> been
> > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
with
> > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> confirmation
> > > > > test.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on
to
> see
> > > if
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
test.
> > > Taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > > bushings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> everything
> > > else
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
> end is
> > > new
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod
&
> > > ends,
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
and
> > > tight.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> happens.
> > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
shim
> it
> > > up if
> > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
DW
> in
> > > that
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > thought.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
the
> old
> > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> frame to
> > > the
> > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
tie
> rod
> > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
stabilzier"
> for
> > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
> for a
> > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
make
> the
> > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
wants
> to
> > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> joint or
> > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
> some
> > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
and
> no
> > > DW
> > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> suspect
> > > the
> > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
> ahead,
> > > and
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > > looking
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
> to
> > > where
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
> tire
> > > then
> > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > > because
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> spiral
> > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > adjustable
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> shims,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way
it
> > > > > positions
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > adjustment
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
> angle
> > > on
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
> other
> > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
Joint
> is
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > > serious
> > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> passes
> > > the
> > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
> off
> > > the
> > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
the
> > > bottom,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
not
> move
> > > in
> > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
steering
> > > wheel
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
> play
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
> all of
> > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > replacing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
> the
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > like-parts
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
> only
> > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> upper
> > > ball
> > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).

I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!

Thanks,
Terry.



"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).

I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!

Thanks,
Terry.



"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).

I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!

Thanks,
Terry.



"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>