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Re: A case of death wobble today
But then as it turns out more often than not, Bill was right.
The guy has an old stabilizer shock and it's installed wrong. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Jerry Newton wrote: > > Bill, as a "seasoned" mechanic, I certainly expect that you should know the > mechanic's creedo: Assume Nothing. I am with Roy on this one. > > Jerry > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message > news:403690F9.B1DFEBE6@cox.net... > > Roy, while under there replacing the stabilizer that you know he needs > > because that's the only way one tire may transfer the shimmy to the the > > other, you would naturally see anything else that needed replacing, or > > do you wear a blindfold while work on your car? > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > Roy J wrote: > > > > > > Bill: READ MY PREVIOUS WORDS CAREFULLY > > > > > > YOU are the one that suggested changing the stabilizer WITHOUT > > > checking for the underlying causes. In my mind, that is getting > > > close to advocating an unsafe fix for a dangerous problem. > > > > > > Note that I did not say anything about not replacing a worn > > > stablizier only that advice about a stablizer should also include > > > advice/warning to check for the root cause. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
But then as it turns out more often than not, Bill was right.
The guy has an old stabilizer shock and it's installed wrong. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Jerry Newton wrote: > > Bill, as a "seasoned" mechanic, I certainly expect that you should know the > mechanic's creedo: Assume Nothing. I am with Roy on this one. > > Jerry > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message > news:403690F9.B1DFEBE6@cox.net... > > Roy, while under there replacing the stabilizer that you know he needs > > because that's the only way one tire may transfer the shimmy to the the > > other, you would naturally see anything else that needed replacing, or > > do you wear a blindfold while work on your car? > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > Roy J wrote: > > > > > > Bill: READ MY PREVIOUS WORDS CAREFULLY > > > > > > YOU are the one that suggested changing the stabilizer WITHOUT > > > checking for the underlying causes. In my mind, that is getting > > > close to advocating an unsafe fix for a dangerous problem. > > > > > > Note that I did not say anything about not replacing a worn > > > stablizier only that advice about a stablizer should also include > > > advice/warning to check for the root cause. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it off for now. Thanks. Terry. "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net... > Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Old Crow wrote: > > > > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble, > > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that > > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone. > > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and > > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even > > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor. > > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have > > trashed the track bar for more articulation. > > > > -- > > Old Crow > > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl' > > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande > > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1 > > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51 |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it off for now. Thanks. Terry. "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net... > Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Old Crow wrote: > > > > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble, > > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that > > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone. > > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and > > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even > > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor. > > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have > > trashed the track bar for more articulation. > > > > -- > > Old Crow > > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl' > > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande > > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1 > > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51 |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it off for now. Thanks. Terry. "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net... > Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Old Crow wrote: > > > > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble, > > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that > > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone. > > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and > > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even > > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor. > > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have > > trashed the track bar for more articulation. > > > > -- > > Old Crow > > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl' > > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande > > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1 > > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51 |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Roy J wrote: ><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Roy J wrote: ><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Roy J wrote: ><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested to correct me?) If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on the > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I just > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll have > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If she > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old steering > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the drag > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > Terry > 92YJ > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > front end work. > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the ball > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > During > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for the > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then heads > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it has > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > from > > there. > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the idea > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions the > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as much > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > YJ > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > Ball > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > that > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > for > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > and > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > 2.) > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in either > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > and > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the tie > > rod ends. > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > rod > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball joints > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and the > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only necessary > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball joints > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested to correct me?) If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on the > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I just > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll have > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If she > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old steering > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the drag > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > Terry > 92YJ > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > front end work. > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the ball > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > During > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for the > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then heads > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it has > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > from > > there. > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the idea > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions the > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as much > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > YJ > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > Ball > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > that > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > for > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > and > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > 2.) > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in either > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > and > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the tie > > rod ends. > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > rod > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball joints > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and the > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only necessary > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball joints > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested to correct me?) If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on the > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I just > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll have > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If she > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old steering > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the drag > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > Terry > 92YJ > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > front end work. > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the ball > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > During > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for the > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then heads > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it has > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > from > > there. > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the idea > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions the > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as much > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > YJ > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > Ball > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > that > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > for > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > and > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > 2.) > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in either > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > and > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the tie > > rod ends. > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > rod > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball joints > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and the > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only necessary > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball joints > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- CRWLR wrote: > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- CRWLR wrote: > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- CRWLR wrote: > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will replace it as soon as I can find one. Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. Thanks again, Terry. "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > the > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > just > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > have > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > she > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > steering > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > drag > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > Terry > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > ball > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > During > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > the > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > heads > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > has > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > > from > > > there. > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > idea > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > the > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > much > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > > YJ > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > > Ball > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > that > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > > for > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > > and > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > > 2.) > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > either > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > > and > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > tie > > > rod ends. > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > > rod > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > joints > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > the > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > necessary > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > joints > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will replace it as soon as I can find one. Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. Thanks again, Terry. "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > the > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > just > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > have > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > she > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > steering > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > drag > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > Terry > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > ball > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > During > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > the > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > heads > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > has > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > > from > > > there. > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > idea > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > the > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > much > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > > YJ > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > > Ball > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > that > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > > for > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > > and > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > > 2.) > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > either > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > > and > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > tie > > > rod ends. > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > > rod > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > joints > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > the > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > necessary > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > joints > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will replace it as soon as I can find one. Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. Thanks again, Terry. "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > to correct me?) > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > the > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > just > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > have > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > she > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > steering > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > drag > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > Terry > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > ball > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > During > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > the > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > heads > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > has > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward > > from > > > there. > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > idea > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > the > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > much > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your > > YJ > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues. > > Ball > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > that > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test > > for > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground > > and > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and > > 2.) > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > either > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back > > and > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > tie > > > rod ends. > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie > > rod > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > joints > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > the > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > necessary > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > joints > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the Caster angle. As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change enough to become a player in DW. Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > Thanks again, > Terry. > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. > If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > > the > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > and > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > > just > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > > have > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > same > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > > she > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > steering > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > drag > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > instead > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > Terry > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > ball > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > it > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > > During > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > > the > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > the > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > heads > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > > has > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > downward > > > from > > > > there. > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in > a > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > > idea > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > > the > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > > much > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > your > > > YJ > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > issues. > > > Ball > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > > that > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > test > > > for > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > ground > > > and > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > and > > > 2.) > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > either > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > back > > > and > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > > tie > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > tie > > > rod > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > joints > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > > the > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > necessary > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > joints > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the Caster angle. As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change enough to become a player in DW. Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > Thanks again, > Terry. > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. > If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > > the > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > and > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > > just > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > > have > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > same > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > > she > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > steering > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > drag > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > instead > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > Terry > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > ball > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > it > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > > During > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > > the > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > the > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > heads > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > > has > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > downward > > > from > > > > there. > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in > a > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > > idea > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > > the > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > > much > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > your > > > YJ > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > issues. > > > Ball > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > > that > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > test > > > for > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > ground > > > and > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > and > > > 2.) > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > either > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > back > > > and > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > > tie > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > tie > > > rod > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > joints > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > > the > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > necessary > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > joints > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the Caster angle. As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change enough to become a player in DW. Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > Thanks again, > Terry. > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. > If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on > > the > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > and > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I > > just > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll > > have > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > same > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If > > she > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > steering > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > drag > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > instead > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > Terry > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > ball > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > it > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction. > > > During > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for > > the > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > the > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > heads > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it > > has > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > downward > > > from > > > > there. > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in > a > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the > > idea > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions > > the > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as > > much > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > your > > > YJ > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > issues. > > > Ball > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one > > > that > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > test > > > for > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > ground > > > and > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > and > > > 2.) > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > either > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > back > > > and > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the > > tie > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > tie > > > rod > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > joints > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and > > the > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > necessary > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > joints > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so dramatic. Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running, and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come into play sooner than I am suggesting. I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me. And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you .... ;-) "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net... > Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought > process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? > The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so dramatic. Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running, and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come into play sooner than I am suggesting. I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me. And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you .... ;-) "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net... > Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought > process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? > The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so dramatic. Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running, and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come into play sooner than I am suggesting. I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me. And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you .... ;-) "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net... > Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought > process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s? > The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested > > to correct me?) > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness, > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. |
Re: A case of death wobble today
He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's CRWLR wrote: > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > Caster angle. > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > enough to become a player in DW. > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > and > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > will > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > Thanks again, > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > would > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > suggested > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > looseness, > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > test. > > If > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > the > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > the > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > on > > > the > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > and > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > drag > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > I > > > just > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > I'll > > > have > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > same > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > If > > > she > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > steering > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > drag > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > instead > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > ball > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > it > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > direction. > > > > During > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > for > > > the > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > the > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > heads > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > it > > > has > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > downward > > > > from > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > in > > a > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > the > > > idea > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > positions > > > the > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > as > > > much > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > your > > > > YJ > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > issues. > > > > Ball > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > one > > > > that > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > test > > > > for > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > ground > > > > and > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > and > > > > 2.) > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > either > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > back > > > > and > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > the > > > tie > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > tie > > > > rod > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > the > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > joints > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > and > > > the > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > necessary > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > joints > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's CRWLR wrote: > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > Caster angle. > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > enough to become a player in DW. > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > and > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > will > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > Thanks again, > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > would > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > suggested > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > looseness, > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > test. > > If > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > the > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > the > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > on > > > the > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > and > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > drag > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > I > > > just > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > I'll > > > have > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > same > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > If > > > she > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > steering > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > drag > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > instead > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > ball > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > it > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > direction. > > > > During > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > for > > > the > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > the > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > heads > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > it > > > has > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > downward > > > > from > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > in > > a > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > the > > > idea > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > positions > > > the > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > as > > > much > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > your > > > > YJ > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > issues. > > > > Ball > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > one > > > > that > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > test > > > > for > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > ground > > > > and > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > and > > > > 2.) > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > either > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > back > > > > and > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > the > > > tie > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > tie > > > > rod > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > the > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > joints > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > and > > > the > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > necessary > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > joints > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's CRWLR wrote: > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > Caster angle. > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > enough to become a player in DW. > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > and > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > will > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > Thanks again, > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > would > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > suggested > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > looseness, > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > test. > > If > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > the > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > the > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > on > > > the > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > and > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > drag > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > I > > > just > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > I'll > > > have > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > same > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > If > > > she > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > steering > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > drag > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > instead > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > ball > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > it > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > direction. > > > > During > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > for > > > the > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > the > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > heads > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > it > > > has > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > downward > > > > from > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > in > > a > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > the > > > idea > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > positions > > > the > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > as > > > much > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > your > > > > YJ > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > issues. > > > > Ball > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > one > > > > that > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > test > > > > for > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > ground > > > > and > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > and > > > > 2.) > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > either > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > back > > > > and > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > the > > > tie > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > tie > > > > rod > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > the > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > joints > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > and > > > the > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > necessary > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > joints > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track bar. The track bar is going back on today. If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes to my rig. Regards, Terry. "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > Caster angle. > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > > and > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > will > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > > would > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > suggested > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > looseness, > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > test. > > > If > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > > the > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > > the > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > > on > > > > the > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > > and > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > > drag > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > > I > > > > just > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > I'll > > > > have > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > > same > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > > If > > > > she > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > steering > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > > drag > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > instead > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > > ball > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > > it > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > direction. > > > > > During > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > > for > > > > the > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > > the > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > > heads > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > > it > > > > has > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > downward > > > > > from > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > > in > > > a > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > > the > > > > idea > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > positions > > > > the > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > > as > > > > much > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > > your > > > > > YJ > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > issues. > > > > > Ball > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > > one > > > > > that > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > > test > > > > > for > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > > ground > > > > > and > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > > and > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > > either > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > > back > > > > > and > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > > tie > > > > > rod > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > > joints > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > > and > > > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > necessary > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > > joints > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track bar. The track bar is going back on today. If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes to my rig. Regards, Terry. "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > Caster angle. > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > > and > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > will > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > > would > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > suggested > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > looseness, > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > test. > > > If > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > > the > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > > the > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > > on > > > > the > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > > and > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > > drag > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > > I > > > > just > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > I'll > > > > have > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > > same > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > > If > > > > she > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > steering > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > > drag > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > instead > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > > ball > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > > it > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > direction. > > > > > During > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > > for > > > > the > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > > the > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > > heads > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > > it > > > > has > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > downward > > > > > from > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > > in > > > a > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > > the > > > > idea > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > positions > > > > the > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > > as > > > > much > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > > your > > > > > YJ > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > issues. > > > > > Ball > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > > one > > > > > that > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > > test > > > > > for > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > > ground > > > > > and > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > > and > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > > either > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > > back > > > > > and > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > > tie > > > > > rod > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > > joints > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > > and > > > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > necessary > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > > joints > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track bar. The track bar is going back on today. If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes to my rig. Regards, Terry. "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > Caster angle. > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test > > and > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > will > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer > > > would > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > suggested > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > looseness, > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > test. > > > If > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if > > > the > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking > > the > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else > > on > > > > the > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new > > > and > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, > > drag > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. > > I > > > > just > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > I'll > > > > have > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that > > > same > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. > > If > > > > she > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > steering > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the > > > > drag > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > instead > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the > > > > ball > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and > > > it > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > direction. > > > > > During > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking > > for > > > > the > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where > > > the > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then > > > > heads > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because > > it > > > > has > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > downward > > > > > from > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable > > in > > > a > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but > > the > > > > idea > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > positions > > > > the > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment > > as > > > > much > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on > > > your > > > > > YJ > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > issues. > > > > > Ball > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the > > one > > > > > that > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the > > > test > > > > > for > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the > > > ground > > > > > and > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, > > > and > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in > > > > either > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel > > > back > > > > > and > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in > > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the > > > tie > > > > > rod > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball > > > > joints > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts > > and > > > > the > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > necessary > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball > > > > joints > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best. Death wobble doesn't just happen! Something is either broken or not built correctly. You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other conclusion, it is built wrong. I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'. Mike Terry Jeffrey wrote: > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac. > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track > bar. The track bar is going back on today. > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes > to my rig. > > Regards, > Terry. > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes > straighat > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can > turn on > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant > difference in > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > > Caster angle. > > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set > during > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball > joints, > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than > lesser > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will > search > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There > is > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, > or a > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking > stall. > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if > the > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it > back > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants > to > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so > the > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works > pretty > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for > now. > > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire > test > > > and > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get > the > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would > be a > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to > the > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt > a > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > > will > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all > together > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. > But > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering > stabalizer > > > > would > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > > suggested > > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > > looseness, > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > > test. > > > > If > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see > if > > > > the > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. > Taking > > > the > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn > bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything > else > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is > new > > > > and > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & > ends, > > > drag > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and > tight. > > > I > > > > > just > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > > I'll > > > > > have > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it > up if > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in > that > > > > same > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first > thought. > > > If > > > > > she > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > > steering > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to > the > > > > > drag > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > > instead > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no > DW > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect > the > > > > > ball > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, > and > > > > it > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > > direction. > > > > > > During > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts > looking > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to > where > > > > the > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire > then > > > > > heads > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore > because > > > it > > > > > has > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > > downward > > > > > > from > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not > adjustable > > > in > > > > a > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, > but > > > the > > > > > idea > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > > positions > > > > > the > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require > adjustment > > > as > > > > > much > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle > on > > > > your > > > > > > YJ > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > > issues. > > > > > > Ball > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is > the > > > one > > > > > > that > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give > serious > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes > the > > > > test > > > > > > for > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off > the > > > > ground > > > > > > and > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the > bottom, > > > > and > > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move > in > > > > > either > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering > wheel > > > > back > > > > > > and > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play > in > > > the > > > > > tie > > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with > replacing > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all > like-parts > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best. Death wobble doesn't just happen! Something is either broken or not built correctly. You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other conclusion, it is built wrong. I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'. Mike Terry Jeffrey wrote: > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac. > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track > bar. The track bar is going back on today. > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes > to my rig. > > Regards, > Terry. > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes > straighat > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can > turn on > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant > difference in > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > > Caster angle. > > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set > during > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball > joints, > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than > lesser > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will > search > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There > is > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, > or a > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking > stall. > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if > the > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it > back > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants > to > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so > the > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works > pretty > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for > now. > > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire > test > > > and > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get > the > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would > be a > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to > the > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt > a > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > > will > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all > together > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. > But > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering > stabalizer > > > > would > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > > suggested > > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > > looseness, > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > > test. > > > > If > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see > if > > > > the > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. > Taking > > > the > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn > bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything > else > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is > new > > > > and > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & > ends, > > > drag > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and > tight. > > > I > > > > > just > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > > I'll > > > > > have > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it > up if > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in > that > > > > same > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first > thought. > > > If > > > > > she > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > > steering > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to > the > > > > > drag > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > > instead > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no > DW > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect > the > > > > > ball > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, > and > > > > it > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > > direction. > > > > > > During > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts > looking > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to > where > > > > the > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire > then > > > > > heads > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore > because > > > it > > > > > has > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > > downward > > > > > > from > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not > adjustable > > > in > > > > a > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, > but > > > the > > > > > idea > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > > positions > > > > > the > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require > adjustment > > > as > > > > > much > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle > on > > > > your > > > > > > YJ > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > > issues. > > > > > > Ball > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is > the > > > one > > > > > > that > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give > serious > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes > the > > > > test > > > > > > for > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off > the > > > > ground > > > > > > and > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the > bottom, > > > > and > > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move > in > > > > > either > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering > wheel > > > > back > > > > > > and > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play > in > > > the > > > > > tie > > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with > replacing > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all > like-parts > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best. Death wobble doesn't just happen! Something is either broken or not built correctly. You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other conclusion, it is built wrong. I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'. Mike Terry Jeffrey wrote: > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac. > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track > bar. The track bar is going back on today. > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes > to my rig. > > Regards, > Terry. > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes > straighat > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can > turn on > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant > difference in > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > > Caster angle. > > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set > during > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball > joints, > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than > lesser > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will > search > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There > is > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, > or a > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking > stall. > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if > the > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it > back > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants > to > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so > the > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works > pretty > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for > now. > > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire > test > > > and > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get > the > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would > be a > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to > the > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt > a > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > > will > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all > together > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. > But > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering > stabalizer > > > > would > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > > suggested > > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > > looseness, > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > > test. > > > > If > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see > if > > > > the > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. > Taking > > > the > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn > bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything > else > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is > new > > > > and > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & > ends, > > > drag > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and > tight. > > > I > > > > > just > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > > I'll > > > > > have > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it > up if > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in > that > > > > same > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first > thought. > > > If > > > > > she > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > > steering > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to > the > > > > > drag > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > > instead > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no > DW > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect > the > > > > > ball > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, > and > > > > it > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > > direction. > > > > > > During > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts > looking > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to > where > > > > the > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire > then > > > > > heads > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore > because > > > it > > > > > has > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > > downward > > > > > > from > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not > adjustable > > > in > > > > a > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, > but > > > the > > > > > idea > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > > positions > > > > > the > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require > adjustment > > > as > > > > > much > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle > on > > > > your > > > > > > YJ > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > > issues. > > > > > > Ball > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is > the > > > one > > > > > > that > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give > serious > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes > the > > > > test > > > > > > for > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off > the > > > > ground > > > > > > and > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the > bottom, > > > > and > > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move > in > > > > > either > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering > wheel > > > > back > > > > > > and > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play > in > > > the > > > > > tie > > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of > the > > > > tie > > > > > > rod > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with > replacing > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all > like-parts > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper > ball > > > > > joints > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial. If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble. L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote: > I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for > the OP! > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Roy J wrote: > >><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial. If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble. L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote: > I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for > the OP! > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Roy J wrote: > >><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial. If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble. L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote: > I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for > the OP! > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Roy J wrote: > >><Snipped babble> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a crowbar on EVERYTHING. Mike Romain wrote: > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > >>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat >>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on >>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in >>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the >>Caster angle. >> >>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the >>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during >>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. >>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of >>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change >>enough to become a player in DW. >> >>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, >>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be >>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint >>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit >>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser >>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch >>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is >>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a >>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. >>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the >>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and >>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback >>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to >>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. >> >>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the >>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty >>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. >> >>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. >> >>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... >> >>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test >> >>and >> >>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the >>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a >>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, >>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? >>> >>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe >>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a >>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and >> >>will >> >>>replace it as soon as I can find one. >>> >>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together >>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But >>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. >>> >>>Thanks again, >>>Terry. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message >>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... >>> >>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer >>> >>>would >>> >>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I >>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been >>> >>>suggested >>> >>>>to correct me?) >>>> >>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with >>> >>>looseness, >>> >>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation >> >>test. >> >>>If >>> >>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if >>> >>>the >>> >>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking >> >>the >> >>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net... >>>> >>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else >> >>on >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, >> >>drag >> >>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. >> >>I >> >>>>just >>>> >>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. >>>>> >>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. >> >>I'll >> >>>>have >>>> >>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if >>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that >>> >>>same >>> >>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. >> >>If >> >>>>she >>>> >>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old >>>> >>>>steering >>>> >>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the >>>> >>>>drag >>>> >>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod >>> >>>instead >>> >>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info. >>>>> >>>>>Terry >>>>>92YJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... >>>>> >>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message >>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... >>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for >>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a >>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the >>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to >>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or >>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some >>>>>>front end work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW >>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the >>>> >>>>ball >>>> >>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. >>>>>> >>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and >>> >>>it >>> >>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same >> >>direction. >> >>>>>During >>>>> >>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking >> >>for >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where >>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then >>>> >>>>heads >>>> >>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because >> >>it >> >>>>has >>>> >>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral >>> >>>downward >>> >>>>>from >>>>> >>>>>>there. >>>>>> >>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable >> >>in >> >>>a >>> >>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but >> >>the >> >>>>idea >>>> >>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it >> >>positions >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment >> >>as >> >>>>much >>>> >>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on >>> >>>your >>> >>>>>YJ >>>>> >>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other >>> >>>issues. >>> >>>>>Ball >>>>> >>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the >> >>one >> >>>>>that >>>>> >>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious >>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the >>> >>>test >>> >>>>>for >>>>> >>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the >>> >>>ground >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>2.) >>>>> >>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in >>>> >>>>either >>>> >>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel >>> >>>back >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in >> >>the >> >>>>tie >>>> >>>>>>rod ends. >>>>>> >>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the >>> >>>tie >>> >>>>>rod >>>>> >>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing >> >>the >> >>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts >> >>and >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only >>>> >>>>necessary >>>> >>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a crowbar on EVERYTHING. Mike Romain wrote: > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > >>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat >>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on >>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in >>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the >>Caster angle. >> >>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the >>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during >>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. >>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of >>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change >>enough to become a player in DW. >> >>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, >>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be >>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint >>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit >>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser >>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch >>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is >>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a >>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. >>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the >>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and >>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback >>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to >>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. >> >>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the >>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty >>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. >> >>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. >> >>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... >> >>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test >> >>and >> >>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the >>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a >>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, >>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? >>> >>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe >>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a >>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and >> >>will >> >>>replace it as soon as I can find one. >>> >>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together >>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But >>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. >>> >>>Thanks again, >>>Terry. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message >>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... >>> >>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer >>> >>>would >>> >>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I >>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been >>> >>>suggested >>> >>>>to correct me?) >>>> >>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with >>> >>>looseness, >>> >>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation >> >>test. >> >>>If >>> >>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if >>> >>>the >>> >>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking >> >>the >> >>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net... >>>> >>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else >> >>on >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, >> >>drag >> >>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. >> >>I >> >>>>just >>>> >>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. >>>>> >>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. >> >>I'll >> >>>>have >>>> >>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if >>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that >>> >>>same >>> >>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. >> >>If >> >>>>she >>>> >>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old >>>> >>>>steering >>>> >>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the >>>> >>>>drag >>>> >>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod >>> >>>instead >>> >>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info. >>>>> >>>>>Terry >>>>>92YJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... >>>>> >>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message >>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... >>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for >>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a >>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the >>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to >>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or >>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some >>>>>>front end work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW >>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the >>>> >>>>ball >>>> >>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. >>>>>> >>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and >>> >>>it >>> >>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same >> >>direction. >> >>>>>During >>>>> >>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking >> >>for >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where >>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then >>>> >>>>heads >>>> >>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because >> >>it >> >>>>has >>>> >>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral >>> >>>downward >>> >>>>>from >>>>> >>>>>>there. >>>>>> >>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable >> >>in >> >>>a >>> >>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but >> >>the >> >>>>idea >>>> >>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it >> >>positions >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment >> >>as >> >>>>much >>>> >>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on >>> >>>your >>> >>>>>YJ >>>>> >>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other >>> >>>issues. >>> >>>>>Ball >>>>> >>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the >> >>one >> >>>>>that >>>>> >>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious >>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the >>> >>>test >>> >>>>>for >>>>> >>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the >>> >>>ground >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>2.) >>>>> >>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in >>>> >>>>either >>>> >>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel >>> >>>back >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in >> >>the >> >>>>tie >>>> >>>>>>rod ends. >>>>>> >>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the >>> >>>tie >>> >>>>>rod >>>>> >>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing >> >>the >> >>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts >> >>and >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only >>>> >>>>necessary >>>> >>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a crowbar on EVERYTHING. Mike Romain wrote: > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > CRWLR wrote: > >>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat >>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on >>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in >>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the >>Caster angle. >> >>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the >>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during >>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. >>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of >>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change >>enough to become a player in DW. >> >>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints, >>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be >>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint >>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit >>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser >>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch >>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is >>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a >>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall. >>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the >>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and >>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback >>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to >>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. >> >>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the >>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty >>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now. >> >>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. >> >>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... >> >>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test >> >>and >> >>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the >>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a >>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, >>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? >>> >>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe >>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a >>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and >> >>will >> >>>replace it as soon as I can find one. >>> >>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together >>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But >>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. >>> >>>Thanks again, >>>Terry. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message >>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... >>> >>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer >>> >>>would >>> >>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I >>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been >>> >>>suggested >>> >>>>to correct me?) >>>> >>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with >>> >>>looseness, >>> >>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation >> >>test. >> >>>If >>> >>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if >>> >>>the >>> >>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking >> >>the >> >>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net... >>>> >>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else >> >>on >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, >> >>drag >> >>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. >> >>I >> >>>>just >>>> >>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. >>>>> >>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. >> >>I'll >> >>>>have >>>> >>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if >>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that >>> >>>same >>> >>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. >> >>If >> >>>>she >>>> >>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old >>>> >>>>steering >>>> >>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the >>>> >>>>drag >>>> >>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod >>> >>>instead >>> >>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info. >>>>> >>>>>Terry >>>>>92YJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... >>>>> >>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message >>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... >>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for >>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a >>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the >>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to >>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or >>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some >>>>>>front end work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW >>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the >>>> >>>>ball >>>> >>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. >>>>>> >>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and >>> >>>it >>> >>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same >> >>direction. >> >>>>>During >>>>> >>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking >> >>for >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where >>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then >>>> >>>>heads >>>> >>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because >> >>it >> >>>>has >>>> >>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral >>> >>>downward >>> >>>>>from >>>>> >>>>>>there. >>>>>> >>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable >> >>in >> >>>a >>> >>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but >> >>the >> >>>>idea >>>> >>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it >> >>positions >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment >> >>as >> >>>>much >>>> >>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on >>> >>>your >>> >>>>>YJ >>>>> >>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other >>> >>>issues. >>> >>>>>Ball >>>>> >>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the >> >>one >> >>>>>that >>>>> >>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious >>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the >>> >>>test >>> >>>>>for >>>>> >>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the >>> >>>ground >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, >>> >>>and >>> >>>>>2.) >>>>> >>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in >>>> >>>>either >>>> >>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel >>> >>>back >>> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in >> >>the >> >>>>tie >>>> >>>>>>rod ends. >>>>>> >>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the >>> >>>tie >>> >>>>>rod >>>>> >>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing >> >>the >> >>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts >> >>and >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only >>>> >>>>necessary >>>> >>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball >>>> >>>>joints >>>> >>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find out - get it checked. About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics. But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!). Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge. Terry. "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca... > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item, > that implies the rest is shaky at best. > > Death wobble doesn't just happen! > > Something is either broken or not built correctly. > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other > conclusion, it is built wrong. > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'. > > Mike > > Terry Jeffrey wrote: > > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac. > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track > > bar. The track bar is going back on today. > > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes > > to my rig. > > > > Regards, > > Terry. > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > > > > > Mike > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes > > straighat > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can > > turn on > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant > > difference in > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > > > Caster angle. > > > > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set > > during > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball > > joints, > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than > > lesser > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will > > search > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There > > is > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, > > or a > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking > > stall. > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if > > the > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it > > back > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants > > to > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so > > the > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works > > pretty > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for > > now. > > > > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire > > test > > > > and > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get > > the > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would > > be a > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to > > the > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt > > a > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > > > will > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all > > together > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. > > But > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering > > stabalizer > > > > > would > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > > > suggested > > > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > > > looseness, > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > > > test. > > > > > If > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see > > if > > > > > the > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. > > Taking > > > > the > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn > > bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything > > else > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is > > new > > > > > and > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & > > ends, > > > > drag > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and > > tight. > > > > I > > > > > > just > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > > > I'll > > > > > > have > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it > > up if > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in > > that > > > > > same > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first > > thought. > > > > If > > > > > > she > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > > > steering > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to > > the > > > > > > drag > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > > > instead > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no > > DW > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect > > the > > > > > > ball > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, > > and > > > > > it > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > > > direction. > > > > > > > During > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts > > looking > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to > > where > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire > > then > > > > > > heads > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore > > because > > > > it > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > > > downward > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not > > adjustable > > > > in > > > > > a > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, > > but > > > > the > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > > > positions > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require > > adjustment > > > > as > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle > > on > > > > > your > > > > > > > YJ > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > > > issues. > > > > > > > Ball > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is > > the > > > > one > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give > > serious > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes > > the > > > > > test > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off > > the > > > > > ground > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the > > bottom, > > > > > and > > > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move > > in > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering > > wheel > > > > > back > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play > > in > > > > the > > > > > > tie > > > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of > > the > > > > > tie > > > > > > > rod > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with > > replacing > > > > the > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the > > ball > > > > > > joints > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all > > like-parts > > > > and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper > > ball > > > > > > joints > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: A case of death wobble today
Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find out - get it checked. About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics. But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!). Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge. Terry. "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca... > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item, > that implies the rest is shaky at best. > > Death wobble doesn't just happen! > > Something is either broken or not built correctly. > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other > conclusion, it is built wrong. > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'. > > Mike > > Terry Jeffrey wrote: > > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac. > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright, > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track > > bar. The track bar is going back on today. > > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes > > to my rig. > > > > Regards, > > Terry. > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca... > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly. > > > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed. > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything.... > > > > > > Mike > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > > > CRWLR wrote: > > > > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes > > straighat > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can > > turn on > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant > > difference in > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the > > > > Caster angle. > > > > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set > > during > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle. > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change > > > > enough to become a player in DW. > > > > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball > > joints, > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than > > lesser > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will > > search > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There > > is > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, > > or a > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking > > stall. > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if > > the > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it > > back > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants > > to > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK. > > > > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so > > the > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works > > pretty > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for > > now. > > > > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°. > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire > > test > > > > and > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get > > the > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would > > be a > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off, > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other? > > > > > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to > > the > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt > > a > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and > > > > will > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one. > > > > > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all > > together > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. > > But > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering > > stabalizer > > > > > would > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been > > > > > suggested > > > > > > to correct me?) > > > > > > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with > > > > > looseness, > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation > > > > test. > > > > > If > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see > > if > > > > > the > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. > > Taking > > > > the > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn > > bushings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything > > else > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is > > new > > > > > and > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & > > ends, > > > > drag > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and > > tight. > > > > I > > > > > > just > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. > > > > I'll > > > > > > have > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it > > up if > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in > > that > > > > > same > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first > > thought. > > > > If > > > > > > she > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old > > > > > > steering > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to > > the > > > > > > drag > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod > > > > > instead > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > 92YJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net... > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some > > > > > > > > front end work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no > > DW > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect > > the > > > > > > ball > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, > > and > > > > > it > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same > > > > direction. > > > > > > > During > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts > > looking > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to > > where > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire > > then > > > > > > heads > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore > > because > > > > it > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral > > > > > downward > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not > > adjustable > > > > in > > > > > a > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, > > but > > > > the > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it > > > > positions > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require > > adjustment > > > > as > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle > > on > > > > > your > > > > > > > YJ > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other > > > > > issues. > > > > > > > Ball > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is > > the > > > > one > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give > > serious > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes > > the > > > > > test > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off > > the > > > > > ground > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the > > bottom, > > > > > and > > > > > > > 2.) > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move > > in > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering > > wheel > > > > > back > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play > > in > > > > the > > > > > > tie > > > > > > > > rod ends. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of > > the > > > > > tie > > > > > > > rod > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with > > replacing > > > > the > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the > > ball > > > > > > joints > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all > > like-parts > > > > and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only > > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper > > ball > > > > > > joints > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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