Approximately 10/12/03 16:03, c uttered for posterity:

> William Oliveri wrote:
>> I'm curious, why would the MPI Kit (the only change from carb) cause
>> an engine to be supsesible to ping? What is it about the fuel
>> injection that causes ping?
>>
>> Also, I was told that the 4.0L head would clear the ping right up
>> because of the porting on the intake ports. If that's the case, it
>> my problem a cause of poor porting on the 4.2L head?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> bill
>
> Unless they were referring to the fact that the ported head has the
> combustion chambers polished, I don't see where a ported head would
> eliminate pinging from an engine.

Unless the current head has a nasty sharp spot on it that
is getting heated up and causing the ping I don't see it
either, unless the head has sharp enough edges to stick
into the exhaust stream and detonate the next intake.


--
My governor can kick your governor's ***

 

Approximately 10/12/03 16:03, c uttered for posterity:

> William Oliveri wrote:
>> I'm curious, why would the MPI Kit (the only change from carb) cause
>> an engine to be supsesible to ping? What is it about the fuel
>> injection that causes ping?
>>
>> Also, I was told that the 4.0L head would clear the ping right up
>> because of the porting on the intake ports. If that's the case, it
>> my problem a cause of poor porting on the 4.2L head?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> bill
>
> Unless they were referring to the fact that the ported head has the
> combustion chambers polished, I don't see where a ported head would
> eliminate pinging from an engine.

Unless the current head has a nasty sharp spot on it that
is getting heated up and causing the ping I don't see it
either, unless the head has sharp enough edges to stick
into the exhaust stream and detonate the next intake.


--
My governor can kick your governor's ***

 

Approximately 10/12/03 16:03, c uttered for posterity:

> William Oliveri wrote:
>> I'm curious, why would the MPI Kit (the only change from carb) cause
>> an engine to be supsesible to ping? What is it about the fuel
>> injection that causes ping?
>>
>> Also, I was told that the 4.0L head would clear the ping right up
>> because of the porting on the intake ports. If that's the case, it
>> my problem a cause of poor porting on the 4.2L head?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> bill
>
> Unless they were referring to the fact that the ported head has the
> combustion chambers polished, I don't see where a ported head would
> eliminate pinging from an engine.

Unless the current head has a nasty sharp spot on it that
is getting heated up and causing the ping I don't see it
either, unless the head has sharp enough edges to stick
into the exhaust stream and detonate the next intake.


--
My governor can kick your governor's ***

 

Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.

What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
(as far as I know).

also, I have manual brakes in my case.

also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
case.

also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
II).

thanks,

bill

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
compression
> > wouldn't make it ping would it?
>
> Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
>
> >
> > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
physically
> > when I put it in.
>
> You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
>
> >
> > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
advance?
>
> 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> unplugged to test it I think.
>
> 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> maximum downward push.
>
> So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> spot'.
>
> If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> 'knock'.
>
> Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> the spark plug.
>
> >
> > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
>
> If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> stable....
>
> >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> >
> > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
>
> Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> engine needs it.
>
> If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
>
> The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
>
> You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> carb blocked at the distributor end.
>
> As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
>
> I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
>
> If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
>
> My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
>
> Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> real mileage tag.
>
> 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
>
> And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
>
> Mike
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > What is your compression?
> > >
> > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> > >
> > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > >
> > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > lines.
> > >
> > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > >
> > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > cover.
> > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > >
> > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > something
> > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > >
> > > > bill
> > > >
> > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > spark
> > > > plugs,
> > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > thingys
> > > > all
> > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
refunded
> > the
> > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > next
> > > > step
> > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
anyway
> > but I
> > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > booo hsssss

 

Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.

What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
(as far as I know).

also, I have manual brakes in my case.

also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
case.

also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
II).

thanks,

bill

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
compression
> > wouldn't make it ping would it?
>
> Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
>
> >
> > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
physically
> > when I put it in.
>
> You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
>
> >
> > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
advance?
>
> 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> unplugged to test it I think.
>
> 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> maximum downward push.
>
> So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> spot'.
>
> If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> 'knock'.
>
> Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> the spark plug.
>
> >
> > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
>
> If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> stable....
>
> >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> >
> > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
>
> Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> engine needs it.
>
> If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
>
> The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
>
> You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> carb blocked at the distributor end.
>
> As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
>
> I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
>
> If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
>
> My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
>
> Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> real mileage tag.
>
> 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
>
> And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
>
> Mike
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > What is your compression?
> > >
> > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> > >
> > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > >
> > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > lines.
> > >
> > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > >
> > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > cover.
> > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > >
> > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > something
> > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > >
> > > > bill
> > > >
> > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > spark
> > > > plugs,
> > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > thingys
> > > > all
> > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
refunded
> > the
> > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > next
> > > > step
> > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
anyway
> > but I
> > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > booo hsssss

 

Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.

What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
(as far as I know).

also, I have manual brakes in my case.

also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
case.

also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
II).

thanks,

bill

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> William Oliveri wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
compression
> > wouldn't make it ping would it?
>
> Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
>
> >
> > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
physically
> > when I put it in.
>
> You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
>
> >
> > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
advance?
>
> 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> unplugged to test it I think.
>
> 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> maximum downward push.
>
> So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> spot'.
>
> If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> 'knock'.
>
> Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> the spark plug.
>
> >
> > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
>
> If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> stable....
>
> >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> >
> > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
>
> Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> engine needs it.
>
> If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
>
> The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
>
> You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> carb blocked at the distributor end.
>
> As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
>
> I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
>
> If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
>
> My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
>
> Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> real mileage tag.
>
> 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
>
> And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
>
> Mike
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > What is your compression?
> > >
> > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > >
> > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
through
> > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > reference.
> > >
> > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > >
> > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > lines.
> > >
> > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > >
> > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > cover.
> > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > >
> > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > something
> > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > >
> > > > bill
> > > >
> > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > spark
> > > > plugs,
> > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > thingys
> > > > all
> > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
refunded
> > the
> > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > next
> > > > step
> > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
anyway
> > but I
> > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > booo hsssss

 

You are chasing a ghost....

What you are calling timing ping can't be timing ping unless something
is seriously messed up. No head swap is going to fix that....

Timing ping only happens under load.....

Ummm how are the lifters or how is the crank?

Does the 'ping' happen at a certain frequency?

What I mean is if you put a timing light on it, does the ping happen in
time with the light or is it slower?

You can even move the timing light from plug to plug and watch the
flashes. If number 3 is in perfect time with the 'ping', you need a
bottom end or crank job....

If in time with the light, that implies a main or rod bearing, if slower
it implies a sticky lifter. An oil additive for sticky lifters can do
it wonders then.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
> ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
> sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
> because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.
>
> What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
> I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
> (as far as I know).
>
> also, I have manual brakes in my case.
>
> also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
> case.
>
> also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
> retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
> the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
> II).
>
> thanks,
>
> bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
> compression
> > > wouldn't make it ping would it?
> >
> > Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> > you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> > be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
> >
> > >
> > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
> physically
> > > when I put it in.
> >
> > You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> > the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
> >
> > >
> > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
> advance?
> >
> > 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> > center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> > past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> > vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> > unplugged to test it I think.
> >
> > 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> > explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> > maximum downward push.
> >
> > So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> > the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> > moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> > spot'.
> >
> > If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> > piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> > and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> > 'knock'.
> >
> > Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> > you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> > added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> > the spark plug.
> >
> > >
> > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
> >
> > If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> > leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> > little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> > that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> > stable....
> >
> > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > >
> > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
> >
> > Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> > inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> > engine needs it.
> >
> > If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> > the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> > move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> > and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> > more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> > able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
> >
> > The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> > how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
> >
> > You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> > carb blocked at the distributor end.
> >
> > As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> > that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> > I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
> >
> > I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> > is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> > bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> > 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
> >
> > If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> > pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> > with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
> >
> > My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> > my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> > That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> > octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
> >
> > Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> > the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> > with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> > My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> > real mileage tag.
> >
> > 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
> >
> > And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > > What is your compression?
> > > >
> > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > > >
> > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > > lines.
> > > >
> > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > > >
> > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > > cover.
> > > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > > >
> > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > > something
> > > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > > >
> > > > > bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > > spark
> > > > > plugs,
> > > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > > thingys
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
> refunded
> > > the
> > > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > > next
> > > > > step
> > > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
> anyway
> > > but I
> > > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > booo hsssss

 

You are chasing a ghost....

What you are calling timing ping can't be timing ping unless something
is seriously messed up. No head swap is going to fix that....

Timing ping only happens under load.....

Ummm how are the lifters or how is the crank?

Does the 'ping' happen at a certain frequency?

What I mean is if you put a timing light on it, does the ping happen in
time with the light or is it slower?

You can even move the timing light from plug to plug and watch the
flashes. If number 3 is in perfect time with the 'ping', you need a
bottom end or crank job....

If in time with the light, that implies a main or rod bearing, if slower
it implies a sticky lifter. An oil additive for sticky lifters can do
it wonders then.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
> ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
> sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
> because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.
>
> What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
> I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
> (as far as I know).
>
> also, I have manual brakes in my case.
>
> also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
> case.
>
> also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
> retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
> the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
> II).
>
> thanks,
>
> bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
> compression
> > > wouldn't make it ping would it?
> >
> > Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> > you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> > be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
> >
> > >
> > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
> physically
> > > when I put it in.
> >
> > You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> > the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
> >
> > >
> > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
> advance?
> >
> > 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> > center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> > past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> > vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> > unplugged to test it I think.
> >
> > 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> > explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> > maximum downward push.
> >
> > So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> > the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> > moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> > spot'.
> >
> > If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> > piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> > and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> > 'knock'.
> >
> > Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> > you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> > added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> > the spark plug.
> >
> > >
> > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
> >
> > If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> > leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> > little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> > that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> > stable....
> >
> > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > >
> > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
> >
> > Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> > inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> > engine needs it.
> >
> > If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> > the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> > move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> > and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> > more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> > able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
> >
> > The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> > how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
> >
> > You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> > carb blocked at the distributor end.
> >
> > As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> > that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> > I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
> >
> > I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> > is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> > bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> > 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
> >
> > If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> > pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> > with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
> >
> > My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> > my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> > That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> > octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
> >
> > Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> > the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> > with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> > My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> > real mileage tag.
> >
> > 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
> >
> > And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > > What is your compression?
> > > >
> > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > > >
> > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > > lines.
> > > >
> > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > > >
> > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > > cover.
> > > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > > >
> > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > > something
> > > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > > >
> > > > > bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > > spark
> > > > > plugs,
> > > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > > thingys
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
> refunded
> > > the
> > > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > > next
> > > > > step
> > > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
> anyway
> > > but I
> > > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > booo hsssss

 

You are chasing a ghost....

What you are calling timing ping can't be timing ping unless something
is seriously messed up. No head swap is going to fix that....

Timing ping only happens under load.....

Ummm how are the lifters or how is the crank?

Does the 'ping' happen at a certain frequency?

What I mean is if you put a timing light on it, does the ping happen in
time with the light or is it slower?

You can even move the timing light from plug to plug and watch the
flashes. If number 3 is in perfect time with the 'ping', you need a
bottom end or crank job....

If in time with the light, that implies a main or rod bearing, if slower
it implies a sticky lifter. An oil additive for sticky lifters can do
it wonders then.

Mike

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting consistant
> ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't found a
> sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
> because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.
>
> What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no load.
> I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock gears
> (as far as I know).
>
> also, I have manual brakes in my case.
>
> also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in this
> case.
>
> also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when jeepsrus
> retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is, set
> the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer (DRB
> II).
>
> thanks,
>
> bill
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> > William Oliveri wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
> compression
> > > wouldn't make it ping would it?
> >
> > Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If
> > you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> > be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
> >
> > >
> > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
> physically
> > > when I put it in.
> >
> > You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on
> > the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
> >
> > >
> > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
> advance?
> >
> > 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> > center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> > past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> > vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections
> > unplugged to test it I think.
> >
> > 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> > explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> > maximum downward push.
> >
> > So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> > the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> > moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet
> > spot'.
> >
> > If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> > piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit
> > and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> > 'knock'.
> >
> > Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so
> > you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> > added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for
> > the spark plug.
> >
> > >
> > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
> >
> > If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a
> > leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A
> > little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> > that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> > stable....
> >
> > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > >
> > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
> >
> > Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> > inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> > engine needs it.
> >
> > If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> > the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then
> > move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> > and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> > more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> > able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'.
> >
> > The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter
> > how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
> >
> > You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the
> > carb blocked at the distributor end.
> >
> > As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> > that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where
> > I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
> >
> > I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance
> > is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> > bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> > 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
> >
> > If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> > pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> > with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
> >
> > My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> > my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> > That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> > octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
> >
> > Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with
> > the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> > with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> > My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> > real mileage tag.
> >
> > 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
> >
> > And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > > What is your compression?
> > > >
> > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > > >
> > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe
> > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> through
> > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > reference.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure?
> > > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > > >
> > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum
> > > > lines.
> > > >
> > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > > >
> > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve
> > > cover.
> > > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch).
> > > > >
> > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point.
> > > something
> > > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > > >
> > > > > bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a
> > > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler
> > > spark
> > > > > plugs,
> > > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado
> > > thingys
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
> refunded
> > > the
> > > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the
> > > next
> > > > > step
> > > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
> anyway
> > > but I
> > > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > booo hsssss

 

Well, I took a closer look at the jeep this evening and I noticed both the
pulse air openings from the previous setup still were not completely sealed,
I could feel air coming from them. So I took a pipe wrench and turned them
up till no air was coming out. At first I thought this fixed the problem
but no. But now I think it's less consistant than before. That is, I'm
hearing it stronger in second gear than any of the others. I need to put
the windows back on the half door and get a better listening environment and
make sure.

btw, I don't hear the ping when I'm at idle. Does that say anything?

How can I evaluate the crank or the lifters?

Thanks,
Bill


"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F89E869.43EFF048@sympatico.ca...
> You are chasing a ghost....
>
> What you are calling timing ping can't be timing ping unless something
> is seriously messed up. No head swap is going to fix that....
>
> Timing ping only happens under load.....
>
> Ummm how are the lifters or how is the crank?
>
> Does the 'ping' happen at a certain frequency?
>
> What I mean is if you put a timing light on it, does the ping happen in
> time with the light or is it slower?
>
> You can even move the timing light from plug to plug and watch the
> flashes. If number 3 is in perfect time with the 'ping', you need a
> bottom end or crank job....
>
> If in time with the light, that implies a main or rod bearing, if slower
> it implies a sticky lifter. An oil additive for sticky lifters can do
> it wonders then.
>
> Mike
>
> William Oliveri wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike, thanks for that post. I should mention that I'm getting
consistant
> > ping from first through 5th gear no matter what the rpm. I haven't
found a
> > sweet spot. The only difference is I can't hear the ping at high speeds
> > because of the wind and highway noises. I'm certian it's there though.
> >
> > What does it say if ping is consistant, load (going up a hill) or no
load.
> > I should also mention I'm running 32x11.5 tires on my cj with stock
gears
> > (as far as I know).
> >
> > also, I have manual brakes in my case.
> >
> > also, this is not a new engine so I seriously doubt high compression in
this
> > case.
> >
> > also, if the distributor was not functioning correctly, then when
jeepsrus
> > retarded the timing it would show on the computer wouldn't it. That is,
set
> > the timing back 6 degrees it should reflect that change in the computer
(DRB
> > II).
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > bill
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3F89DBB3.2432E63D@sympatico.ca...
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of
> > compression
> > > > wouldn't make it ping would it?
> > >
> > > Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across.
If
> > > you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might
> > > be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good
> > physically
> > > > when I put it in.
> > >
> > > You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs
on
> > > the internal timing advance weights can be worn out.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of
> > advance?
> > >
> > > 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead
> > > center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going
> > > past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled
> > > vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance
connections
> > > unplugged to test it I think.
> > >
> > > 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to
> > > explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the
> > > maximum downward push.
> > >
> > > So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so
> > > the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical
> > > moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the
'sweet
> > > spot'.
> > >
> > > If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the
> > > piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical
hit
> > > and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or
> > > 'knock'.
> > >
> > > Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does
so
> > > you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is
> > > added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits
for
> > > the spark plug.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > > > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast?
> > >
> > > If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has
a
> > > leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast.
A
> > > little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be
> > > that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down
> > > stable....
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm.
Maybe
> > > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> > through
> > > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > > reference.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light?
> > >
> > > Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism
> > > inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the
> > > engine needs it.
> > >
> > > If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint
> > > the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out,
then
> > > move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge
> > > and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that
> > > more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be
> > > able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing
'advances'.
> > >
> > > The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real
matter
> > > how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving.
> > >
> > > You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to
the
> > > carb blocked at the distributor end.
> > >
> > > As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think
> > > that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is
where
> > > I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too.
> > >
> > > I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the
advance
> > > is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a
> > > bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above
> > > 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out.
> > >
> > > If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you
> > > pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear
> > > with stock tires and it will ping like crazy.
> > >
> > > My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in
> > > my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds.
> > > That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91
> > > octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever...
> > >
> > > Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync
with
> > > the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case
> > > with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's.
> > > My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a
> > > real mileage tag.
> > >
> > > 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-)
> > >
> > > And I still have that Carter BBD in there!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > What is your compression?
> > > > >
> > > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy?
> > > > >
> > > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm.
Maybe
> > > > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it
> > through
> > > > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for
> > > > > reference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for
sure?
> > > > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold
> > > > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for
vacuum
> > > > > lines.
> > > > >
> > > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times?
> > > > >
> > > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the
valve
> > > > cover.
> > > > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2
inch).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this
point.
> > > > something
> > > > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@***.net...
> > > > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe,
put a
> > > > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression.
> > > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane,
cooler
> > > > spark
> > > > > > plugs,
> > > > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those
tornado
> > > > thingys
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs
> > refunded
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess
the
> > > > next
> > > > > > step
> > > > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned
> > anyway
> > > > but I
> > > > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > booo hsssss