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Re: Can't loose that ping
Your suprised the tornado didn't work?
Nick "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message news:bmcd4u$l5rj6$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de... > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler spark plugs, > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado thingys all > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded the > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the next step > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway but I > didn't want to be forced into it. > > booo hsssss > > > |
Re: Can't loose that ping
Your suprised the tornado didn't work?
Nick "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message news:bmcd4u$l5rj6$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de... > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler spark plugs, > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado thingys all > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded the > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the next step > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway but I > didn't want to be forced into it. > > booo hsssss > > > |
Re: Can't loose that ping
William Oliveri wrote:
> > Hi Mike, > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > wouldn't make it ping would it? Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause. > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good physically > when I put it in. You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on the internal timing advance weights can be worn out. > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of advance? 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections unplugged to test it I think. 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the maximum downward push. So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet spot'. If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or 'knock'. Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for the spark plug. > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast? > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast? If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down stable.... > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light? Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the engine needs it. If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'. The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving. You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the carb blocked at the distributor end. As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too. I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out. If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear with stock tires and it will ping like crazy. My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds. That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91 octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever... Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's. My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a real mileage tag. 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-) And I still have that Carter BBD in there! Mike > > Thanks, > > Bill > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca... > > What is your compression? > > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy? > > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure? > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping. > > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum > > lines. > > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times? > > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking. > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve > cover. > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch). > > > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point. > something > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it. > > > > > > bill > > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@cox.net... > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression. > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler > spark > > > plugs, > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado > thingys > > > all > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded > the > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the > next > > > step > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway > but I > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it. > > > > > > > > > > booo hsssss |
Re: Can't loose that ping
William Oliveri wrote:
> > Hi Mike, > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > wouldn't make it ping would it? Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause. > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good physically > when I put it in. You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on the internal timing advance weights can be worn out. > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of advance? 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections unplugged to test it I think. 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the maximum downward push. So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet spot'. If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or 'knock'. Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for the spark plug. > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast? > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast? If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down stable.... > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light? Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the engine needs it. If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'. The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving. You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the carb blocked at the distributor end. As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too. I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out. If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear with stock tires and it will ping like crazy. My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds. That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91 octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever... Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's. My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a real mileage tag. 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-) And I still have that Carter BBD in there! Mike > > Thanks, > > Bill > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca... > > What is your compression? > > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy? > > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure? > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping. > > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum > > lines. > > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times? > > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking. > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve > cover. > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch). > > > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point. > something > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it. > > > > > > bill > > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@cox.net... > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression. > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler > spark > > > plugs, > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado > thingys > > > all > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded > the > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the > next > > > step > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway > but I > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it. > > > > > > > > > > booo hsssss |
Re: Can't loose that ping
William Oliveri wrote:
> > Hi Mike, > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > wouldn't make it ping would it? Correct. A 'new' 258 is supposed to have 145 - 150 psi all across. If you are any higher, you have carbon issues and the ATF treatment might be for you, despite the smoke out it will cause. > > How do you determine if the distributor is worn? It looked good physically > when I put it in. You will need a timing light to check the advance rate. The springs on the internal timing advance weights can be worn out. > > What does it mean by the term "advance"? What's the opposite of advance? 'Advance' means you are advancing the spark to 'before top dead center'. Retarding it is putting it closer to 0 on the gauge or going past to ATDC or after top dead center. Some computer controlled vehicles call for this with a timing light and some advance connections unplugged to test it I think. 'You' want the spark to catch just in time for all the gas/air mix to explode as the piston crests the top of it's travel so you get the maximum downward push. So for different speeds, you want the advance to be higher or lower so the electricity signal to the ignition module or points and physical moving parts and fuel intake come together at the right spot, the 'sweet spot'. If the timing is too far advanced, the explosion kicks back on the piston before it crests the top and all the bearings get a physical hit and the piston itself flaps sideways making a 'rattle' or 'ping' or 'knock'. Low octane gas can start to explode by compression, like diesel does so you have the gas igniting before the spark plug fires off. Octane is added to slow down that burn rate or 'flash point' so the gas waits for the spark plug. > > What is the negative effect of pumping the brake pedel fast? > What should be the desired effect when pumping the brake pedel fast? If you have power brakes, they use a big vacuum diaphragm. If it has a leak, the idle will go crazy when you pump the brakes hard and fast. A little rumble and a change in the idle is normal, but a leak won't be that, the idle will go way high and take a while to come back down stable.... > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > I'm not clear on this. Is this checked with a timing light? Yes, you are looking for worn out springs in the advance mechanism inside the distributor. This means the timing advances before the engine needs it. If you manually turn the engine so the timing mark lines up and paint the v groove in the flywheel with something like typing white out, then move the flywheel out to the 10 degree mark on the v groove and gauge and paint another spot on the flywheel at the 0 point, them turn that more so it hits 10, then make another mark makes 30, you will still be able to see the marks as they pass the gauge when the timing 'advances'. The idea is to see at what rpm the advance stops moving, no real matter how 'much' it moves, just what rpm it stops moving. You do this test with the vacuum advance unplugged and that hose to the carb blocked at the distributor end. As I said, it still should keep moving until you hit 2300 rpm 'I think that is the right rpm', then stop. Close to that anyway, that is where I get the best torque and gas mileage on the highway too. I am thinking yours is topping at 1500 or something lower so the advance is too soon for the engine's power band need and it will ping like a bugger for a bit there on acceleration, then mellow out at speed above 2300 rpm where the timing 'should' be topped out. If that theory is correct, then at 70 mph you shouldn't ping when you pull out to pass or climb a long hill. Try that at 55 mph in top gear with stock tires and it will ping like crazy. My engine starts a load ping in top gear at around 1700-1800 rpm or in my case 65 mph. I need to run in 4th on the highway at those speeds. That gives me 2300 rpm and 100 miles extra per tank of gas running 91 octane, really good get up and go and no pings ever... Running right at the 'sweet spot' where the timing comes into sync with the power needed gives me a nice 19 US mpg or 11 L/100 km. In my case with 3.31 gears, that is 65 mph at 2300 rpm in 4th gear turning 33's. My speedometer is GPS calibrated right on too so I know I am getting a real mileage tag. 350 miles plus on a tank of gas ain't too shabby in my book. ;-) And I still have that Carter BBD in there! Mike > > Thanks, > > Bill > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:3F89C5E6.BD58CE20@sympatico.ca... > > What is your compression? > > > > Is your distributor maybe worn so it advances too far or too easy? > > > > Someone told me that the advance should top out at 2300 rpm. Maybe > > check that on yours by marking the slot white so you can see it through > > the fan blades or mark a spot in a measured static advance for > > reference. > > > > Maybe someone knows for sure what the top end for advance is for sure? > > If it tops too fast you can get a ping. > > > > Vacuum leak? Maybe try a spray of carb cleaner along the manifold > > gasket and TB base plate to see if the idle bumps. Same for vacuum > > lines. > > > > What happens if you pump the brake pedal fast a few times? > > > > Something simple is likely to pop up I am thinking. > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > yeah, I have to get a 4.0L manifold. I have the head and the valve > cover. > > > I need the manifold and a kit for the head bolts (7/16 to 1/2 inch). > > > > > > shouldn't be too much more in parts. mostly labor at this point. > something > > > I didn't really want to do but no way around it. > > > > > > bill > > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message > > > news:3F89B926.EED5AABD@cox.net... > > > > But, your manifold won't fit the 4.0 litre head. Maybe, put a > > > > sandwich gasket in and loose a compression. > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler > spark > > > plugs, > > > > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado > thingys > > > all > > > > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded > the > > > > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the > next > > > step > > > > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway > but I > > > > > didn't want to be forced into it. > > > > > > > > > > booo hsssss |
Re: Can't loose that ping
Huh?????
Mike "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote: > > Vice versa. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > > wouldn't make it ping would it? > ><snip> |
Re: Can't loose that ping
Huh?????
Mike "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote: > > Vice versa. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > > wouldn't make it ping would it? > ><snip> |
Re: Can't loose that ping
Huh?????
Mike "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote: > > Vice versa. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > William Oliveri wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > So if compression was an issue it would be too high? Too low of compression > > wouldn't make it ping would it? > ><snip> |
Re: Can't loose that ping
no, I'm not suprised but then again JeepsRUs have had success with them in
some cases. Since they refunded my 57.00 on that suggestion it was worth a try. If I was stuck with it then it would be a different story. bill "Nick N" <nnote@despammed.com> wrote in message news:LWkib.22402$Rd4.11742@fed1read07... > Your suprised the tornado didn't work? > Nick > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message > news:bmcd4u$l5rj6$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de... > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler spark > plugs, > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado thingys > all > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded the > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the next step > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway but I > > didn't want to be forced into it. > > > > booo hsssss > > > > > > > > |
Re: Can't loose that ping
no, I'm not suprised but then again JeepsRUs have had success with them in
some cases. Since they refunded my 57.00 on that suggestion it was worth a try. If I was stuck with it then it would be a different story. bill "Nick N" <nnote@despammed.com> wrote in message news:LWkib.22402$Rd4.11742@fed1read07... > Your suprised the tornado didn't work? > Nick > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message > news:bmcd4u$l5rj6$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de... > > Well I've tried retarding the timing, upping the octane, cooler spark > plugs, > > even (at the suggestion of JeepsRUs) tried one of those tornado thingys > all > > which didn't work. Still have pinging. Luckily, JeepsRUs refunded the > > 57.00 for the tornado thing when it didn't work. So I guess the next step > > is to put the 4.0L head on the bugger. This I had planned anyway but I > > didn't want to be forced into it. > > > > booo hsssss > > > > > > > > |
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