Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

Hi Gerald,
One of the air tankers who's wings came off, was within a hundred
yards of a friend's home and store business in Walker, California:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2051058.stm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"Gerald G. McGeorge" wrote:
>
> Right, Will. Last year we watched the tanker pilots handle for days flying
> right over our homes at tree top levels, buffeted all over by 30 - 40 mph
> winds, yet still making pin point drops. Sadly we lost two crews last year
> in crashes where the aging planes' wings came off. Most folks don;t know,
> but the newest planes in the fleet are C-130s and Orions from the mid -60's.
> The Privateer (single tail Navy version of the WWII Liberator) that crashed
> up near Estes Park rolled off the line in 1945! Expecting them to fly in
> that wind would have been unreasonable.
>
> What I learned last year from the pilots fighting the Missionary Ridge fire
> here was that while the planes make the initial drops to mark and hold fire
> lines where the fires are making fast runs, the real heavy lifting in terms
> of suppression is done by the big Skycrane and other helicopters, which can
> pinpoint drop their loads.
>
> These pilots (as well as all the firefighters) are real heroes, take your
> hats of to 'em!

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

I agree completely.

--
Jim
--
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98
"You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard
enough..."
"4x4" in caps is "$X$"


"Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-2dSnZxhD8OdT@anon.none.net...
> I just read a story on one of the news pages where someone was raising
> hell about the lack of response by air tankers. According to the
> story, a police chopper spotted the Cedar fire when it was still a
> small outbreak. He called for an air drop but the drop was refused
> because the tankers had just been grounded due to winds. The
> implication was that the rules should have been ignored and the drop
> made anyway. People who think like that should have to fly with those
> guys on the drop runs!
>
> Watch the videos of some of those tanker runs and see if you think
> those jockeys would be scared off by 'just a little wind" or poor
> visibility. The air tanker crews are the "real jeepers" among pilots
> - talk about off-road challenges! Anytime you see accidents where the
> pilots pull the wings off you know they have modified the cockpits
> with extra room for the balls they sport. Asking them to fly when
> conditions are beyond what THEY consider safe would border on
> criminal.
>
> OK, you can have the soap box back - rant over.
>
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:34:34 UTC "Kevin in San Diego"
> <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> > begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> > better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly
feel
> > sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> > the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> > KH
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> > news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it
was
> > > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> > outcome
> > > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short
time
> > > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut
down
> > > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > > project.
> > >
> > > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > > fire.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> > >
> > > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > > >
> > > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The
first is
> > > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until
all
> > > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of
the
> > > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours
from
> > > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more
way
> > > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > > >
> > > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > > the deaths.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

I agree completely.

--
Jim
--
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98
"You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard
enough..."
"4x4" in caps is "$X$"


"Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-2dSnZxhD8OdT@anon.none.net...
> I just read a story on one of the news pages where someone was raising
> hell about the lack of response by air tankers. According to the
> story, a police chopper spotted the Cedar fire when it was still a
> small outbreak. He called for an air drop but the drop was refused
> because the tankers had just been grounded due to winds. The
> implication was that the rules should have been ignored and the drop
> made anyway. People who think like that should have to fly with those
> guys on the drop runs!
>
> Watch the videos of some of those tanker runs and see if you think
> those jockeys would be scared off by 'just a little wind" or poor
> visibility. The air tanker crews are the "real jeepers" among pilots
> - talk about off-road challenges! Anytime you see accidents where the
> pilots pull the wings off you know they have modified the cockpits
> with extra room for the balls they sport. Asking them to fly when
> conditions are beyond what THEY consider safe would border on
> criminal.
>
> OK, you can have the soap box back - rant over.
>
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:34:34 UTC "Kevin in San Diego"
> <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> > begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> > better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly
feel
> > sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> > the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> > KH
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> > news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it
was
> > > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> > outcome
> > > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short
time
> > > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut
down
> > > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > > project.
> > >
> > > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > > fire.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> > >
> > > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > > >
> > > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The
first is
> > > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until
all
> > > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of
the
> > > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours
from
> > > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more
way
> > > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > > >
> > > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > > the deaths.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

I agree completely.

--
Jim
--
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98
"You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard
enough..."
"4x4" in caps is "$X$"


"Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-2dSnZxhD8OdT@anon.none.net...
> I just read a story on one of the news pages where someone was raising
> hell about the lack of response by air tankers. According to the
> story, a police chopper spotted the Cedar fire when it was still a
> small outbreak. He called for an air drop but the drop was refused
> because the tankers had just been grounded due to winds. The
> implication was that the rules should have been ignored and the drop
> made anyway. People who think like that should have to fly with those
> guys on the drop runs!
>
> Watch the videos of some of those tanker runs and see if you think
> those jockeys would be scared off by 'just a little wind" or poor
> visibility. The air tanker crews are the "real jeepers" among pilots
> - talk about off-road challenges! Anytime you see accidents where the
> pilots pull the wings off you know they have modified the cockpits
> with extra room for the balls they sport. Asking them to fly when
> conditions are beyond what THEY consider safe would border on
> criminal.
>
> OK, you can have the soap box back - rant over.
>
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:34:34 UTC "Kevin in San Diego"
> <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> > begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> > better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly
feel
> > sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> > the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> > KH
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> > news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it
was
> > > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> > outcome
> > > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short
time
> > > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut
down
> > > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > > project.
> > >
> > > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > > fire.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> > >
> > > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > > >
> > > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The
first is
> > > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until
all
> > > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of
the
> > > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours
from
> > > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more
way
> > > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > > >
> > > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > > the deaths.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests. This is natures way and a
good fire to kill bugs and to turn dead wood into nutrients for new trees is
the way it should be. If anything is wrong it is people building houses
where they should be jeepin'


"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xeKob.129000$gv5.40444@fed1read05...
> I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly feel
> sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> KH
>
> "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it was
> > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> outcome
> > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short time
> > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut down
> > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > project.
> >
> > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > fire.
> >
> > Jerry
> > --
> > Jerry Bransford
> > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> >
> > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > >
> > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The first
is
> > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until all
> > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of the
> > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours from
> > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more way
> > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > >
> > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > the deaths.
> > >
> > > --
> > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests. This is natures way and a
good fire to kill bugs and to turn dead wood into nutrients for new trees is
the way it should be. If anything is wrong it is people building houses
where they should be jeepin'


"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xeKob.129000$gv5.40444@fed1read05...
> I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly feel
> sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> KH
>
> "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it was
> > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> outcome
> > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short time
> > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut down
> > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > project.
> >
> > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > fire.
> >
> > Jerry
> > --
> > Jerry Bransford
> > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> >
> > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > >
> > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The first
is
> > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until all
> > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of the
> > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours from
> > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more way
> > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > >
> > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > the deaths.
> > >
> > > --
> > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests. This is natures way and a
good fire to kill bugs and to turn dead wood into nutrients for new trees is
the way it should be. If anything is wrong it is people building houses
where they should be jeepin'


"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xeKob.129000$gv5.40444@fed1read05...
> I blame the lack of rain and the windy conditions. Finger pointing shall
> begin though, no matter what. I can only hope it turns out that we get a
> better system in the long run. Thank god my family survived. I truly feel
> sorry for the people who have lost property and even worse, loved ones.
All
> the finger pointing in the world wont change that.
> KH
>
> "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
> news:XgJob.128996$gv5.11564@fed1read05...
> > It's ridiculous... truly ridiculous... to think California could have
> > cleaned out those millions of dead trees in the couple of months it was
> > since the request for funding to do so was sent to Washington. The
> outcome
> > would have been the same had it been approved because of the short time
> > involved. It's asinine and ridiculous to think they could have cut down
> > millions of dead trees in that time frame. Even if it had been
approved,
> > Davis or some other bureaucrat would have likely either dragged their
feet
> > starting the clearing or hijacked the money to give to some other pet
> > project.
> >
> > Don't try some lame attempt to blame Washington D.C. on the outcome of
the
> > fire.
> >
> > Jerry
> > --
> > Jerry Bransford
> > To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> > KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> >
> > "Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
> > news:sTEob.73049$HS4.635988@attbi_s01...
> > > Approximately 10/31/03 18:21, Will Honea uttered for posterity:
> > >
> > > > We have a C-130 reserve outfit here in Colorado Springs with
something
> > > > like 6 birds equipped with drop kits and crews trained to handle
them.
> > > > There are 2 problems that need to be kept in mind, tho. The first
is
> > > > that the local fire commander has to request them - that's a human
> > > > problem with no ready solution. The other problem is a 1930's era
> > > > federal law that prohibits the use of militarty resources until all
> > > > civilian commercial resources are exhausted. Talking to some of the
> > > > pilots here, that seems to be a huge problem. The time for a
request
> > > > to clear the buracracy seems to be measured in days while the
response
> > > > time of the crews and the equipment was something like 4 hours from
> > > > 'Go' in Colorado to dropping retardant in California. One more way
> > > > your friendly government looks out for you...
> > >
> > > Latest is that copies of the written request to the fed gov't to
> > > allocate FEMA funds to get rid of the massive dead trees in a
> > > couple of the fire areas *before* the fires started are now
> > > surfacing. A mere few hundred million in FEMA funds allegedly
> > > could have prevented a few billion in damages, plus unfortunately
> > > the deaths.
> > >
> > > --
> > > My governor can kick your governor's ass
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

> Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests.

Not exactly, preventing all fires for 60+ years has created huge impassable
areas where the density of fuel is extremely hazardous. Instead of a light
fire blasting thru and leaving the trees, we get these infernos that burn
everything.
After the Darby fire here, they have begun thinning the forests around the
polulated areas. It looks like hell for a while, but it restores the forest
to where it would have been without our "help", considerably lowers the
danger of catastrophic fires, and gives convicts something to do.
After 2 years, the thinned areas look great.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

> Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests.

Not exactly, preventing all fires for 60+ years has created huge impassable
areas where the density of fuel is extremely hazardous. Instead of a light
fire blasting thru and leaving the trees, we get these infernos that burn
everything.
After the Darby fire here, they have begun thinning the forests around the
polulated areas. It looks like hell for a while, but it restores the forest
to where it would have been without our "help", considerably lowers the
danger of catastrophic fires, and gives convicts something to do.
After 2 years, the thinned areas look great.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California

Re: California Wildfires - San Diego Area
 

> Nobody is to blame for the state of the forests.

Not exactly, preventing all fires for 60+ years has created huge impassable
areas where the density of fuel is extremely hazardous. Instead of a light
fire blasting thru and leaving the trees, we get these infernos that burn
everything.
After the Darby fire here, they have begun thinning the forests around the
polulated areas. It looks like hell for a while, but it restores the forest
to where it would have been without our "help", considerably lowers the
danger of catastrophic fires, and gives convicts something to do.
After 2 years, the thinned areas look great.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California