99 wrangler hard start
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
Sounds like the check valve in the regulator has failed or an injector is
leaking.
Do you have a single puff of black smoke when you start up?
You can do a leakdown test to determine which problem you have.
"magicman" <magicman.2je9f5@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
news:magicman.2je9f5@news.autobanter.com...
>
> 97tjMike Wrote:
>> i had a similar problem on my 97. If it's the fuel pressure system
>> (which it sounds like) shoot me a message and I can walk you thru the
>> steps to fixing it. A good way to test if its a fuel problem is to
>> turn
>> the key to the 'on' position a couple of times and not start it. After
>> 3 or 4 times see if it starts easy. If it does, that means that you
>> have an issue with maintaining fuel pressure.
>>
>> And mpg....i get 15.5....it ain't a hybrid
>
>
>
> i can turn the key onece w/o starting it and it cranks up right up on
> the second key turn ?? thx
>
>
>
>
> --
> magicman
leaking.
Do you have a single puff of black smoke when you start up?
You can do a leakdown test to determine which problem you have.
"magicman" <magicman.2je9f5@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
news:magicman.2je9f5@news.autobanter.com...
>
> 97tjMike Wrote:
>> i had a similar problem on my 97. If it's the fuel pressure system
>> (which it sounds like) shoot me a message and I can walk you thru the
>> steps to fixing it. A good way to test if its a fuel problem is to
>> turn
>> the key to the 'on' position a couple of times and not start it. After
>> 3 or 4 times see if it starts easy. If it does, that means that you
>> have an issue with maintaining fuel pressure.
>>
>> And mpg....i get 15.5....it ain't a hybrid
>
>
>
> i can turn the key onece w/o starting it and it cranks up right up on
> the second key turn ?? thx
>
>
>
>
> --
> magicman
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
As billy ray said, a leakdown test is in order for sure. I bought the
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
As billy ray said, a leakdown test is in order for sure. I bought the
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
As billy ray said, a leakdown test is in order for sure. I bought the
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Hanes Manual for about 18 dollars at my local Advanced Auto Parts,
probably a good idea if you plan on doing work on your vehicle in the
future. A good way to double check and make sure its a fuel delivery
problem is to depress the schroeder valve a couple of hours after the
vehicle is shut off, and see if there is pressure (which there should
be if you didnt have a problem).
There are 4 possible things that can go wrong causing the fuel system
to lose its pressure when the vehicle is turned off:
1) Leak in the fuel line (you would probably smell gas or find that
your truck drips fuel
2) Leak in one of the fuel injectors (you can test this by removing the
fuel rail and the injectors (its all one assembly held in place by
about 3 screws i think) and then turning the key to on a couple of
times (NOT START) and then you can check for drips from the injectors
because there should be none
The other two possible problems are as follows:
You will need a fuel pressure tester to test this....I bought one for
about 8 bucks at Harbor Freight. You can attach the tester to the
schroeder valve in the fuel rail. Pressure should go up to about 45ish
PSI when you start the vehicle. When you turn the vehicle off, it
should stick to around the same pressure. Anything under 30 PSI after
five minutes is unacceptable.
3) Leak in the fuel pressure regulator-pressure will drop quickly to
under 30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new FPR, its clips
on the top of the tank (at least with the 4.0, i think the 2.5 is on
the rail)
4) Leak in the fuel pump check valve-pressure will drop slowly to under
30 PSI after truck is turned off. You need a new fuel pump. The check
valve is built in.
Thanks to bill for posting the entire chapter on fuel delivery from the
FSM:
http://www.----------.com/97TJfuelSystem.pdf
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
No, I'm saying the PCM adapts to CURRENT conditions. Even under load.
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
No, I'm saying the PCM adapts to CURRENT conditions. Even under load.
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 99 wrangler hard start
No, I'm saying the PCM adapts to CURRENT conditions. Even under load.
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
It will default to open loop under WOT conditions, but you're not
getting 25 mpg if you spend most of your time with the pedal to the
metal.
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:09 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>Under load conditions, the PCM will shut down the fuel to adjust to the
>restrictive stock intake and exhaust. That is what you are saying. Maybe
>I'm getting more mileage, which we know for sure, because I am actually
>getting more power. What you're doing is invoking theory to try to prove
>that the throttle body is useless, but automotive design is not 100% theory.
>Most of it is testing, testing and more testing.
>
>http://www.applemacintoshart.com/fox/grapes.htm
>
>Earle
>
>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:njtuo2pl3g3o6p9vv5e27m7vikl5auc117@4ax.com.. .
>> No doubt, the fan probably made the biggest difference. The exhaust
>> may have helped too. However, I was addressing the t/body. It will not
>> change fuel mileage, or mixture. For that matter, nothing you did will
>> affect mixture, since the PCM will adjust to get the O2 content of the
>> exhaust where it wants it.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:11:46 -0700, "Earle Horton"
>> <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote:
>>
>> >These are average figures, but I went from about 20 mpg in stock
>> >configuration to about 25 mpg after the bored out throttle body, cat back
>> >exhaust and electric fan. This was with the 2.5 liter engine. I believe
>> >that in the stock configuration, the vehicle runs a little rich in order
>to
>> >keep NOx emissions down. Most modern vehicles doo. According to spark
>plug
>> >appearance, the vehicle isn't running too lean now, but the gas mileage
>is
>> >improved, according to measurements made over 7 years. In my experience
>I
>> >couldn't measure or evaluate the alleged performance increase I was
>supposed
>> >to get, but the mileage increase is very real. The fact that you might
>> >believe this to be impossible doesn't change the figures I have written
>down
>> >in the notebook I keep in the vehicle.
>> >
>> >One thing about the fan. The four cylinder engine doesn't need as much
>> >cooling air as the six, so I can drive down a highway or even a gravel
>road
>> >and it will never come on. Usually, the fan only comes on in the summer
>in
>> >city driving. That is why it represents a fuel savings, because it
>doesn't
>> >have to come on and therefore use engine power. Your six cylinder
>> >experience here may be different.
>> >
>> >Now if you put in at least a cat-back exhaust, which sooner or later you
>> >will have to replace because of rocks, rust, whatever, well it seems to
>have
>> >helped the Jeep and the Suburban I have too. And you can't argue with
>the
>> >cool sound it makes.
>> >
>> >Earle
>> >
>> >"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>> >news:8nrto2du7voaqvggtaa31087ta9bn971ou@4ax.com.. .
>> >> A bored out t/body will do nothing for fuel economy. It won't help
>> >> performance either, other than at wide open throttle.
>> >>
>> >> It goes without saying that if you're "enjoying" your "performance
>> >> increase" from a larger t/body, you're not gonna get any fuel mileage.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:51 -0600, "TomP" <tompeters@localnet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Could you elaborate on the bored out throttle body? I have a 04 with
>4.0
>> >and
>> >> >am looking for ways to increse the milege. Just finished the air
>cleaner,
>> >> >electric fan, and exhaust ( cat back ) upgrades, but havent gone
>anywhere
>> >to
>> >> >check milege. Taking a trip next week to see.
>> >> >Thanks Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:458e1bf6$0$3526$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
>> >> >> Mine takes about 1.5 seconds to start every time, and has since new.
>> >It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a 95. Yours sounds like a different problem though. There is a
>check
>> >> >> valve
>> >> >> somewhere in the fuel system that can leak down. Buy or rent a
>> >pressure
>> >> >> gauge to put on the fuel rail and see if this is it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean "doesnt get great gas mileage"? If you got the big
>> >> >> engine,
>> >> >> of course you're not going to get great mileage. If you got the
>small
>> >> >> engine, you won't either. Mine has the small engine and gets about
>25
>> >mpg
>> >> >> after a bored out throttle body, high performance exhaust and
>electric
>> >> >> cooling fan. Before all those upgrades it got about 20. If you
>plan
>> >to
>> >> >> take it off road, you can wait on the exhaust upgrade, until after
>you
>> >> >> smash
>> >> >> your current muffler on a rock, heh, heh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You of course gave it a complete ignition tune up, air cleaner,
>etc.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Welcome to the club.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earle
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "magicman" <magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:magicman.2jb0r9@news.autobanter.com...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> i have a newly purchased 99 wrangler and it will not start on first
>> >try
>> >> >>> but turn the key off and she fires right up on the second try any
>> >> >>> ideas? thanks also it doesnt get great gas mileage ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> magicman
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>
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