Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

"Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
gas
> in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> problem as opposed to a valve problem.

I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
cyl #3?

I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
spark.

Here's what I would do:
Drain the oil again.
Pull the plugs and the valve cover
Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
it will save from being messy)
Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.

-Fred W

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

"Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
gas
> in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> problem as opposed to a valve problem.

I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
cyl #3?

I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
spark.

Here's what I would do:
Drain the oil again.
Pull the plugs and the valve cover
Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
it will save from being messy)
Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.

-Fred W

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

"Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
gas
> in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> problem as opposed to a valve problem.

I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
cyl #3?

I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
spark.

Here's what I would do:
Drain the oil again.
Pull the plugs and the valve cover
Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
it will save from being messy)
Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.

-Fred W

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

You make two statements that are contradictory here. First, #3 had
zero compression. Next, they said the wet test was fine. Something
doesn't compute - either just adding oil to the cylinder miraculously
restored the compression or there was still no compression which means
that they couldn't tell squat about the rings anyway. Makes me wonder
about what they were looking at.

Last time I saw this kind of thing I had a stuck valve. Time before
that, a lifter had failed. With the valve cover off, you should see
both rockers for #3 moving (good lifter). Put your finger on the
valve side of the rocker and press down hard while it's turning over -
a stuck valve will not push back up near as hard. Since you seem to
be pumping gas thru the tailpipe, I'd be looking at a stuck/burned
exhaust valve. A stuck/burned intake would be sending pressure back
thru the intake and you would feel (and hear) that at the throttle
body.

With zero compression, you've got a big open hole somewhere. If the
rockers are moving and tight, it's most likely a valve stuck/jammed
open. Either way, I'd figure it's time to pull the head. Since
whatever it is is open, I'd also discount the lifters or a
bent/displaced pushrod. If it weren't for the zero compression, I'd
start with ignition. That zero compression is the biggest clue, but
the only way to be sure (and to fix it) is likely going to require the
head off.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:41:24 UTC rzbj70@qwest.net (Mike Cagle) wrote:

> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems


--
Will Honea

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

You make two statements that are contradictory here. First, #3 had
zero compression. Next, they said the wet test was fine. Something
doesn't compute - either just adding oil to the cylinder miraculously
restored the compression or there was still no compression which means
that they couldn't tell squat about the rings anyway. Makes me wonder
about what they were looking at.

Last time I saw this kind of thing I had a stuck valve. Time before
that, a lifter had failed. With the valve cover off, you should see
both rockers for #3 moving (good lifter). Put your finger on the
valve side of the rocker and press down hard while it's turning over -
a stuck valve will not push back up near as hard. Since you seem to
be pumping gas thru the tailpipe, I'd be looking at a stuck/burned
exhaust valve. A stuck/burned intake would be sending pressure back
thru the intake and you would feel (and hear) that at the throttle
body.

With zero compression, you've got a big open hole somewhere. If the
rockers are moving and tight, it's most likely a valve stuck/jammed
open. Either way, I'd figure it's time to pull the head. Since
whatever it is is open, I'd also discount the lifters or a
bent/displaced pushrod. If it weren't for the zero compression, I'd
start with ignition. That zero compression is the biggest clue, but
the only way to be sure (and to fix it) is likely going to require the
head off.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:41:24 UTC rzbj70@qwest.net (Mike Cagle) wrote:

> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems


--
Will Honea

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

You make two statements that are contradictory here. First, #3 had
zero compression. Next, they said the wet test was fine. Something
doesn't compute - either just adding oil to the cylinder miraculously
restored the compression or there was still no compression which means
that they couldn't tell squat about the rings anyway. Makes me wonder
about what they were looking at.

Last time I saw this kind of thing I had a stuck valve. Time before
that, a lifter had failed. With the valve cover off, you should see
both rockers for #3 moving (good lifter). Put your finger on the
valve side of the rocker and press down hard while it's turning over -
a stuck valve will not push back up near as hard. Since you seem to
be pumping gas thru the tailpipe, I'd be looking at a stuck/burned
exhaust valve. A stuck/burned intake would be sending pressure back
thru the intake and you would feel (and hear) that at the throttle
body.

With zero compression, you've got a big open hole somewhere. If the
rockers are moving and tight, it's most likely a valve stuck/jammed
open. Either way, I'd figure it's time to pull the head. Since
whatever it is is open, I'd also discount the lifters or a
bent/displaced pushrod. If it weren't for the zero compression, I'd
start with ignition. That zero compression is the biggest clue, but
the only way to be sure (and to fix it) is likely going to require the
head off.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:41:24 UTC rzbj70@qwest.net (Mike Cagle) wrote:

> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems


--
Will Honea

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

You make two statements that are contradictory here. First, #3 had
zero compression. Next, they said the wet test was fine. Something
doesn't compute - either just adding oil to the cylinder miraculously
restored the compression or there was still no compression which means
that they couldn't tell squat about the rings anyway. Makes me wonder
about what they were looking at.

Last time I saw this kind of thing I had a stuck valve. Time before
that, a lifter had failed. With the valve cover off, you should see
both rockers for #3 moving (good lifter). Put your finger on the
valve side of the rocker and press down hard while it's turning over -
a stuck valve will not push back up near as hard. Since you seem to
be pumping gas thru the tailpipe, I'd be looking at a stuck/burned
exhaust valve. A stuck/burned intake would be sending pressure back
thru the intake and you would feel (and hear) that at the throttle
body.

With zero compression, you've got a big open hole somewhere. If the
rockers are moving and tight, it's most likely a valve stuck/jammed
open. Either way, I'd figure it's time to pull the head. Since
whatever it is is open, I'd also discount the lifters or a
bent/displaced pushrod. If it weren't for the zero compression, I'd
start with ignition. That zero compression is the biggest clue, but
the only way to be sure (and to fix it) is likely going to require the
head off.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:41:24 UTC rzbj70@qwest.net (Mike Cagle) wrote:

> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems


--
Will Honea

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

Well, Mike, got eighty five thousand miles on an K&N air filter,
Baja racers barely get a thousand, before their engines are sanded.
Glass probably stuck an exhaust valve, but the engine needs a complete
rebuild, anyway.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"Fred W." wrote:
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

Well, Mike, got eighty five thousand miles on an K&N air filter,
Baja racers barely get a thousand, before their engines are sanded.
Glass probably stuck an exhaust valve, but the engine needs a complete
rebuild, anyway.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"Fred W." wrote:
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W

Re: 98TJ 4.0L with no compression in cylinder 3 - long
 

Well, Mike, got eighty five thousand miles on an K&N air filter,
Baja racers barely get a thousand, before their engines are sanded.
Glass probably stuck an exhaust valve, but the engine needs a complete
rebuild, anyway.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"Fred W." wrote:
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W