Bill Putney

Steve Kraus wrote:
> 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, I-6, close to 150K miles.
>
> It cranks sluggishly. It actually starts ok because it's firing up on
> what may be the first rev but it's really slow sounding. Battery was
> about 30 months old. Spec. gravity thingy with the floating ***** said
> cells were only at 75% charge. I checked system voltage with engine off
> and it was about 12 point something and with the engine running 13 point
> something to 14. Seemed better for awhile so I was been watching the
> vehicle's own voltmeter and it seems where it should be, near 14 with the
> engine running. I also removed and emery'd the posts and cable clamps.
>
> It started to seem sluggish turning over again in the last few days so
> today I checked the battery cells and this time 50% to 75%. Okay, time
> for a new battery so I got a pro-rated warranty replacement. After
> putting it in I was hoping to hear a vigorous start. But nope, still
> sluggish with the new battery. Of course the new battery, not coming
> from a place that keeps them on trickle charge, isn't really fully
> charged so I am hoping after it really gets charged it will in fact cure
> the sluggish crank but is there anything else I should be looking for?
> Do starters get "weak" or more likely just fail flat out?
>
> Also, is it normal to get oddly high battery voltage readings immediately
> after taking off charge, like in the 13's rather than 12 point something,
> maybe from "surface charge" or something? I'm not charging it at any
> great rate, just 3 or 4 amps....not much more than a trickle. SG
> doohicky said the cells were at 75%.

Comments:
3-4 amps should be enough to charge it, but you need to make sure you
leave it on long enough - at least overnight. If it's still showing
75%, I'd suspect your hygrometer is not accurate. So you don't keep
chasing your tail with that, I'd take it to the place you bought your
battery and ask if they'd measure the battery with their hygrometer and
put that question to rest.

The surface charge thing is correct - voltage would start out higher
right after a charge and drop down after sitting. 13.5-14 is about
right with the engine running (charging it).

Once you eliminate the confusion factor of whether the battery is up to
snuff or not, if it's still slow cranking, then pursue that.

On whether starters can get weak rather than fail flat out, someone else
could better answer that. As billy ray suggested, you need to confirm
integrity of all connections in the high current path to the starter,
including grounds. Maybe the solenoid contacts are hight resistance,
but I think they usually just get intermittent (one time it will crank
right up, next time it just clicks) rather than constant sluggishness.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney

Steve Kraus wrote:
> 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, I-6, close to 150K miles.
>
> It cranks sluggishly. It actually starts ok because it's firing up on
> what may be the first rev but it's really slow sounding. Battery was
> about 30 months old. Spec. gravity thingy with the floating ***** said
> cells were only at 75% charge. I checked system voltage with engine off
> and it was about 12 point something and with the engine running 13 point
> something to 14. Seemed better for awhile so I was been watching the
> vehicle's own voltmeter and it seems where it should be, near 14 with the
> engine running. I also removed and emery'd the posts and cable clamps.
>
> It started to seem sluggish turning over again in the last few days so
> today I checked the battery cells and this time 50% to 75%. Okay, time
> for a new battery so I got a pro-rated warranty replacement. After
> putting it in I was hoping to hear a vigorous start. But nope, still
> sluggish with the new battery. Of course the new battery, not coming
> from a place that keeps them on trickle charge, isn't really fully
> charged so I am hoping after it really gets charged it will in fact cure
> the sluggish crank but is there anything else I should be looking for?
> Do starters get "weak" or more likely just fail flat out?
>
> Also, is it normal to get oddly high battery voltage readings immediately
> after taking off charge, like in the 13's rather than 12 point something,
> maybe from "surface charge" or something? I'm not charging it at any
> great rate, just 3 or 4 amps....not much more than a trickle. SG
> doohicky said the cells were at 75%.

Comments:
3-4 amps should be enough to charge it, but you need to make sure you
leave it on long enough - at least overnight. If it's still showing
75%, I'd suspect your hygrometer is not accurate. So you don't keep
chasing your tail with that, I'd take it to the place you bought your
battery and ask if they'd measure the battery with their hygrometer and
put that question to rest.

The surface charge thing is correct - voltage would start out higher
right after a charge and drop down after sitting. 13.5-14 is about
right with the engine running (charging it).

Once you eliminate the confusion factor of whether the battery is up to
snuff or not, if it's still slow cranking, then pursue that.

On whether starters can get weak rather than fail flat out, someone else
could better answer that. As billy ray suggested, you need to confirm
integrity of all connections in the high current path to the starter,
including grounds. Maybe the solenoid contacts are hight resistance,
but I think they usually just get intermittent (one time it will crank
right up, next time it just clicks) rather than constant sluggishness.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney

Steve Kraus wrote:
> 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, I-6, close to 150K miles.
>
> It cranks sluggishly. It actually starts ok because it's firing up on
> what may be the first rev but it's really slow sounding. Battery was
> about 30 months old. Spec. gravity thingy with the floating ***** said
> cells were only at 75% charge. I checked system voltage with engine off
> and it was about 12 point something and with the engine running 13 point
> something to 14. Seemed better for awhile so I was been watching the
> vehicle's own voltmeter and it seems where it should be, near 14 with the
> engine running. I also removed and emery'd the posts and cable clamps.
>
> It started to seem sluggish turning over again in the last few days so
> today I checked the battery cells and this time 50% to 75%. Okay, time
> for a new battery so I got a pro-rated warranty replacement. After
> putting it in I was hoping to hear a vigorous start. But nope, still
> sluggish with the new battery. Of course the new battery, not coming
> from a place that keeps them on trickle charge, isn't really fully
> charged so I am hoping after it really gets charged it will in fact cure
> the sluggish crank but is there anything else I should be looking for?
> Do starters get "weak" or more likely just fail flat out?
>
> Also, is it normal to get oddly high battery voltage readings immediately
> after taking off charge, like in the 13's rather than 12 point something,
> maybe from "surface charge" or something? I'm not charging it at any
> great rate, just 3 or 4 amps....not much more than a trickle. SG
> doohicky said the cells were at 75%.

Comments:
3-4 amps should be enough to charge it, but you need to make sure you
leave it on long enough - at least overnight. If it's still showing
75%, I'd suspect your hygrometer is not accurate. So you don't keep
chasing your tail with that, I'd take it to the place you bought your
battery and ask if they'd measure the battery with their hygrometer and
put that question to rest.

The surface charge thing is correct - voltage would start out higher
right after a charge and drop down after sitting. 13.5-14 is about
right with the engine running (charging it).

Once you eliminate the confusion factor of whether the battery is up to
snuff or not, if it's still slow cranking, then pursue that.

On whether starters can get weak rather than fail flat out, someone else
could better answer that. As billy ray suggested, you need to confirm
integrity of all connections in the high current path to the starter,
including grounds. Maybe the solenoid contacts are hight resistance,
but I think they usually just get intermittent (one time it will crank
right up, next time it just clicks) rather than constant sluggishness.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Steve Kraus

Thanks for the advice.

>> Or I will give up and just get a car.
>
> Want an RX-7? My 85 ZJ gets better mileage under any condition.

No but thanks anyway.

Well, today I finally found a Mercury Mariner Hybrid (basically an upscale
Ford Escape) to test drive. I was a little disappointed. It road kind of
rough over bumps and much to my surprise, unlike the Highlander which, as
far as I could tell, has fully electric air conditioning, the MM Hybrid
still has the compressor belted to the engine. Slow down and stop and when
the engine shuts off so does the chill. I found that if I put the controls
into MAX AC the engine stays running. But if I have to do that for much of
the summer that kind of blows the whole hybrid business. So maybe the
Highlander or just get a car. But I'm kind of psyched up for a hybrid so
have to consider the Camry Hybrid. I did look over the Lexus Hybrid SUV
but $55K would buy a lot of gas not to mention two Camry's.

Steve Kraus

Thanks for the advice.

>> Or I will give up and just get a car.
>
> Want an RX-7? My 85 ZJ gets better mileage under any condition.

No but thanks anyway.

Well, today I finally found a Mercury Mariner Hybrid (basically an upscale
Ford Escape) to test drive. I was a little disappointed. It road kind of
rough over bumps and much to my surprise, unlike the Highlander which, as
far as I could tell, has fully electric air conditioning, the MM Hybrid
still has the compressor belted to the engine. Slow down and stop and when
the engine shuts off so does the chill. I found that if I put the controls
into MAX AC the engine stays running. But if I have to do that for much of
the summer that kind of blows the whole hybrid business. So maybe the
Highlander or just get a car. But I'm kind of psyched up for a hybrid so
have to consider the Camry Hybrid. I did look over the Lexus Hybrid SUV
but $55K would buy a lot of gas not to mention two Camry's.

Steve Kraus

Thanks for the advice.

>> Or I will give up and just get a car.
>
> Want an RX-7? My 85 ZJ gets better mileage under any condition.

No but thanks anyway.

Well, today I finally found a Mercury Mariner Hybrid (basically an upscale
Ford Escape) to test drive. I was a little disappointed. It road kind of
rough over bumps and much to my surprise, unlike the Highlander which, as
far as I could tell, has fully electric air conditioning, the MM Hybrid
still has the compressor belted to the engine. Slow down and stop and when
the engine shuts off so does the chill. I found that if I put the controls
into MAX AC the engine stays running. But if I have to do that for much of
the summer that kind of blows the whole hybrid business. So maybe the
Highlander or just get a car. But I'm kind of psyched up for a hybrid so
have to consider the Camry Hybrid. I did look over the Lexus Hybrid SUV
but $55K would buy a lot of gas not to mention two Camry's.

Steve Kraus

Last week I drove about 120 miles and my first re-start after getting
there was so sluggish it almost stopped while cranking but I guess a
cylinder just happened to fire at the right moment and it started. I
curtailed my visit and the few errands I did I left the engine idling the
whole time. As soon as I got close to home I left it with a mechanic.

Naturally the next day he called to say they could find nothing
wrong...it was starting vigorously. Charging system checked out and as I
said previously the battery is new. I suggested maybe it was temp
related so they let it get warmed up and still nothing.

He said putting in a new starter is about $270 all told and that's too
much to do on speculation alone. I agree. When I picked up the car it
was still starting vigorously and did so for about a day and then the
sluggishness returned.

I am starting to notice a correlation between heat and this problem. I'm
guessing the starter gets less functional as it gets hot although I
suppose it could also be something in the engine making it hard to crank
at high temperatures.

Yesterday after some long driving with progressively worse starts as the
day went on it finally culminated (luckily within walking distance from
home although it didn't prove to be necessary) in it not being able to
crank at all. Being at a fast food place I placed an ice cube on the
starter. Also spritzed it with water. Got back in the car and while it
was still just barely there it did start up.

What failure mode is happening inside the starter (if that's what it is)
that causes it to get weaker as it gets hotter?

It's still not a sure thing but while I might not want to spend $270 on
spec I am willing to buy a rebuilt starter for about $75 and put it in
myself on hope alone.

Anything I should know about starter R&R on 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Limited inline 6? I've never done one but everything I've read makes it
sound pretty simple. Disconnect the battery, disconnect wires from the
starter, unbolt it and bolt in the new one, etc.

Steve Kraus

Last week I drove about 120 miles and my first re-start after getting
there was so sluggish it almost stopped while cranking but I guess a
cylinder just happened to fire at the right moment and it started. I
curtailed my visit and the few errands I did I left the engine idling the
whole time. As soon as I got close to home I left it with a mechanic.

Naturally the next day he called to say they could find nothing
wrong...it was starting vigorously. Charging system checked out and as I
said previously the battery is new. I suggested maybe it was temp
related so they let it get warmed up and still nothing.

He said putting in a new starter is about $270 all told and that's too
much to do on speculation alone. I agree. When I picked up the car it
was still starting vigorously and did so for about a day and then the
sluggishness returned.

I am starting to notice a correlation between heat and this problem. I'm
guessing the starter gets less functional as it gets hot although I
suppose it could also be something in the engine making it hard to crank
at high temperatures.

Yesterday after some long driving with progressively worse starts as the
day went on it finally culminated (luckily within walking distance from
home although it didn't prove to be necessary) in it not being able to
crank at all. Being at a fast food place I placed an ice cube on the
starter. Also spritzed it with water. Got back in the car and while it
was still just barely there it did start up.

What failure mode is happening inside the starter (if that's what it is)
that causes it to get weaker as it gets hotter?

It's still not a sure thing but while I might not want to spend $270 on
spec I am willing to buy a rebuilt starter for about $75 and put it in
myself on hope alone.

Anything I should know about starter R&R on 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Limited inline 6? I've never done one but everything I've read makes it
sound pretty simple. Disconnect the battery, disconnect wires from the
starter, unbolt it and bolt in the new one, etc.

Steve Kraus

Last week I drove about 120 miles and my first re-start after getting
there was so sluggish it almost stopped while cranking but I guess a
cylinder just happened to fire at the right moment and it started. I
curtailed my visit and the few errands I did I left the engine idling the
whole time. As soon as I got close to home I left it with a mechanic.

Naturally the next day he called to say they could find nothing
wrong...it was starting vigorously. Charging system checked out and as I
said previously the battery is new. I suggested maybe it was temp
related so they let it get warmed up and still nothing.

He said putting in a new starter is about $270 all told and that's too
much to do on speculation alone. I agree. When I picked up the car it
was still starting vigorously and did so for about a day and then the
sluggishness returned.

I am starting to notice a correlation between heat and this problem. I'm
guessing the starter gets less functional as it gets hot although I
suppose it could also be something in the engine making it hard to crank
at high temperatures.

Yesterday after some long driving with progressively worse starts as the
day went on it finally culminated (luckily within walking distance from
home although it didn't prove to be necessary) in it not being able to
crank at all. Being at a fast food place I placed an ice cube on the
starter. Also spritzed it with water. Got back in the car and while it
was still just barely there it did start up.

What failure mode is happening inside the starter (if that's what it is)
that causes it to get weaker as it gets hotter?

It's still not a sure thing but while I might not want to spend $270 on
spec I am willing to buy a rebuilt starter for about $75 and put it in
myself on hope alone.

Anything I should know about starter R&R on 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee
Limited inline 6? I've never done one but everything I've read makes it
sound pretty simple. Disconnect the battery, disconnect wires from the
starter, unbolt it and bolt in the new one, etc.