Mike Romain

If it starts when you hold the pedal to the floor, it was likely flooded
badly.

Holding the pedal to the floor usually sends a signal indicating a flood
when the starter is turning so the injectors don't fire allowing the gas
already in there to catch. It then will chug a little with lots of
black smoke and quickly mellow out.

That indicates to me a spark issue.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

D wrote:
>
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!
> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor. Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.
> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.
> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
> Denny
> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
> news:wQPzb.24458$Gj2.8693@okepread01...
> > "D" <dpfer@r.com> wrote in message
> news:OxKzb.105969$Eq1.40720@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Hi all.
> >
> > <side note, html is icky> :)
> >
> > Going to go through a few ideas.
> >
> > Ignition issues including misses at speed.
> > Bad sparkplug
> > bured out wire
> > cracked cap
> > burned through rotor
> > Worn out distributor. (can you move the rotor from side to side or
> > is there a lot of oil in the bottom of the distributor)
> > If yes, you need a new distributor.
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/distributor/
> >
> > I'm almost betting your rotor has burned a hole in it and
> > the spark is going through the distributor to ground.
> >
> > More things to check.
> >
> > Does the fuel pump turn on when the ignition key goes to run?
> > Is the fuel rail pressure up to 32psi?
> > (an R-12 gauge works well to test pressure)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes...-test-port.jpg
> >
> > Have you cleaned the Idle Air Passage in the TB?
> > (usually associated with rough idle though)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html
> >
> > ESD relay (emergency shutdown relay) gone bad. This will
> > prevent a start, but it also prevents the fuel pump from
> > cycling. (Relay center behind the battery)
> >
> >
> > The diagnositcs page on my site might help.
> > Gotta run.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
> >
> >

Mike Romain

If it starts when you hold the pedal to the floor, it was likely flooded
badly.

Holding the pedal to the floor usually sends a signal indicating a flood
when the starter is turning so the injectors don't fire allowing the gas
already in there to catch. It then will chug a little with lots of
black smoke and quickly mellow out.

That indicates to me a spark issue.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

D wrote:
>
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!
> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor. Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.
> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.
> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
> Denny
> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
> news:wQPzb.24458$Gj2.8693@okepread01...
> > "D" <dpfer@r.com> wrote in message
> news:OxKzb.105969$Eq1.40720@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Hi all.
> >
> > <side note, html is icky> :)
> >
> > Going to go through a few ideas.
> >
> > Ignition issues including misses at speed.
> > Bad sparkplug
> > bured out wire
> > cracked cap
> > burned through rotor
> > Worn out distributor. (can you move the rotor from side to side or
> > is there a lot of oil in the bottom of the distributor)
> > If yes, you need a new distributor.
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/distributor/
> >
> > I'm almost betting your rotor has burned a hole in it and
> > the spark is going through the distributor to ground.
> >
> > More things to check.
> >
> > Does the fuel pump turn on when the ignition key goes to run?
> > Is the fuel rail pressure up to 32psi?
> > (an R-12 gauge works well to test pressure)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes...-test-port.jpg
> >
> > Have you cleaned the Idle Air Passage in the TB?
> > (usually associated with rough idle though)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html
> >
> > ESD relay (emergency shutdown relay) gone bad. This will
> > prevent a start, but it also prevents the fuel pump from
> > cycling. (Relay center behind the battery)
> >
> >
> > The diagnositcs page on my site might help.
> > Gotta run.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
> >
> >

Mike Romain

If it starts when you hold the pedal to the floor, it was likely flooded
badly.

Holding the pedal to the floor usually sends a signal indicating a flood
when the starter is turning so the injectors don't fire allowing the gas
already in there to catch. It then will chug a little with lots of
black smoke and quickly mellow out.

That indicates to me a spark issue.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

D wrote:
>
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!
> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor. Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.
> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.
> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
> Denny
> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
> news:wQPzb.24458$Gj2.8693@okepread01...
> > "D" <dpfer@r.com> wrote in message
> news:OxKzb.105969$Eq1.40720@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Hi all.
> >
> > <side note, html is icky> :)
> >
> > Going to go through a few ideas.
> >
> > Ignition issues including misses at speed.
> > Bad sparkplug
> > bured out wire
> > cracked cap
> > burned through rotor
> > Worn out distributor. (can you move the rotor from side to side or
> > is there a lot of oil in the bottom of the distributor)
> > If yes, you need a new distributor.
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/distributor/
> >
> > I'm almost betting your rotor has burned a hole in it and
> > the spark is going through the distributor to ground.
> >
> > More things to check.
> >
> > Does the fuel pump turn on when the ignition key goes to run?
> > Is the fuel rail pressure up to 32psi?
> > (an R-12 gauge works well to test pressure)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes...-test-port.jpg
> >
> > Have you cleaned the Idle Air Passage in the TB?
> > (usually associated with rough idle though)
> > http://members.***.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html
> >
> > ESD relay (emergency shutdown relay) gone bad. This will
> > prevent a start, but it also prevents the fuel pump from
> > cycling. (Relay center behind the battery)
> >
> >
> > The diagnositcs page on my site might help.
> > Gotta run.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
> >
> >

Lon Stowell

At 12/5/03 04:23, DougW bespake thusly:

> Will Honea did pass the time by typing:
>
>> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
>> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
>> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
>> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
>> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
>> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
>> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
>> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
>> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
>> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
>> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
>> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
>> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
>> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
>> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
>> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
>> better consider it on the re-start.
>
> Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
> the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
> described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.
>
> You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

Never had this happen *yet* on a ZJ, but if you get ice in the
fuel line and it jams a !@!@$# injector open, you get a pretty
good flood condition in a hurry. Even a partial open jam will
make the engine run like crap until the rail gets warm enough
to melt the ice.

--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

Lon Stowell

At 12/5/03 04:23, DougW bespake thusly:

> Will Honea did pass the time by typing:
>
>> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
>> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
>> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
>> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
>> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
>> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
>> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
>> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
>> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
>> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
>> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
>> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
>> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
>> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
>> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
>> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
>> better consider it on the re-start.
>
> Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
> the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
> described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.
>
> You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

Never had this happen *yet* on a ZJ, but if you get ice in the
fuel line and it jams a !@!@$# injector open, you get a pretty
good flood condition in a hurry. Even a partial open jam will
make the engine run like crap until the rail gets warm enough
to melt the ice.

--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

Lon Stowell

At 12/5/03 04:23, DougW bespake thusly:

> Will Honea did pass the time by typing:
>
>> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
>> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
>> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
>> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
>> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
>> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
>> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
>> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
>> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
>> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
>> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
>> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
>> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
>> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
>> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
>> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
>> better consider it on the re-start.
>
> Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
> the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
> described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.
>
> You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

Never had this happen *yet* on a ZJ, but if you get ice in the
fuel line and it jams a !@!@$# injector open, you get a pretty
good flood condition in a hurry. Even a partial open jam will
make the engine run like crap until the rail gets warm enough
to melt the ice.

--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

D

Doug,
Aw, I was just dreamin' on the supercharger anyway. Many years past that.
Thanks for the help, again, and here's an update,
I threw an old moving blanket over the engine compartment last night. I
really don't know if it had anything to do with it, but the old lady started
on the 4th revolution, smoothly idling and behaving well.
The leak-down test intrigues me and I'm going out to do that now. Through
this and some other problems I've had with her, fuel supply has always been
my suspicion, over spark. I know many things can affect the supply.
Used to have an Audi 5000 Turbo. It had a closed fuel management system and
several problems I had with it kind of echo what I'm experiencing.
Anyway, not out of the woods yet, but getting there.
Thanks to yours and others help.
Denny

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:LsUzb.24528$Gj2.3847@okepread01...
> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want
a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off
rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I
finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and
holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and
honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here
somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or
runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other
problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.
>
> --
> -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
>
>

D

Doug,
Aw, I was just dreamin' on the supercharger anyway. Many years past that.
Thanks for the help, again, and here's an update,
I threw an old moving blanket over the engine compartment last night. I
really don't know if it had anything to do with it, but the old lady started
on the 4th revolution, smoothly idling and behaving well.
The leak-down test intrigues me and I'm going out to do that now. Through
this and some other problems I've had with her, fuel supply has always been
my suspicion, over spark. I know many things can affect the supply.
Used to have an Audi 5000 Turbo. It had a closed fuel management system and
several problems I had with it kind of echo what I'm experiencing.
Anyway, not out of the woods yet, but getting there.
Thanks to yours and others help.
Denny

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:LsUzb.24528$Gj2.3847@okepread01...
> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want
a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off
rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I
finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and
holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and
honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here
somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or
runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other
problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.
>
> --
> -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
>
>

D

Doug,
Aw, I was just dreamin' on the supercharger anyway. Many years past that.
Thanks for the help, again, and here's an update,
I threw an old moving blanket over the engine compartment last night. I
really don't know if it had anything to do with it, but the old lady started
on the 4th revolution, smoothly idling and behaving well.
The leak-down test intrigues me and I'm going out to do that now. Through
this and some other problems I've had with her, fuel supply has always been
my suspicion, over spark. I know many things can affect the supply.
Used to have an Audi 5000 Turbo. It had a closed fuel management system and
several problems I had with it kind of echo what I'm experiencing.
Anyway, not out of the woods yet, but getting there.
Thanks to yours and others help.
Denny

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:LsUzb.24528$Gj2.3847@okepread01...
> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want
a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off
rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I
finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and
holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and
honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here
somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or
runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other
problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.***.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.
>
> --
> -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
>
>

Will Honea

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:23:53 UTC "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address>
wrote:

> Will Honea did pass the time by typing:
>
> > Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
> > you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
> > evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
> > get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
> > and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
> > smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
> > died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
> > throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
> > flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
> > to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
> > cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
> > it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
> > instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
> > we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
> > parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
> > don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
> > better consider it on the re-start.
>
> Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
> the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
> described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.
>
> You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

Oh, yeah! Pumping a FI system (with no fuel pump) falls into the "----
on a boar hog" category - but it seems to make some folks feel better
<g>. I don't know about the shutoff deal w/the MOPAR computer, but
the old Rennix is too dumb to know any better.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>