4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
Guest
Posts: n/a
4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
miles several times per week.
thanx...
Skyslider
2008 Liberty Ltd.
Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
miles several times per week.
thanx...
Skyslider
2008 Liberty Ltd.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
Skyslider wrote:
> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> miles several times per week.
>
> thanx...
>
> Skyslider
>
> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
short right corner isn't an issue.
Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
for off road 'or' snow roads.
What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
to occur.
Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
corner under engine load instead of brake load.
I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
how it reacts.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> miles several times per week.
>
> thanx...
>
> Skyslider
>
> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
short right corner isn't an issue.
Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
for off road 'or' snow roads.
What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
to occur.
Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
corner under engine load instead of brake load.
I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
how it reacts.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
On Feb 1, 8:21 am, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Skyslider wrote:
> > I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> > Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> > I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> > miles several times per week.
>
> > thanx...
>
> > Skyslider
>
> > 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>
> Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
> I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
> I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
>
> I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
> 2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
> tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
> top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
> short right corner isn't an issue.
>
> Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
> stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
> for off road 'or' snow roads.
>
> What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
> but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
> valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
> to occur.
>
> Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
> the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
> than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
> ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
> corner under engine load instead of brake load.
>
> I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
> how it reacts.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
OK I'll take that as a "No" for daily urban driving. I'm in the SoCal
desert...so exnay on the snow but thanks anyway. We don't shovel snow-
we just dream about it..
Skyslider
> Skyslider wrote:
> > I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> > Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> > I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> > miles several times per week.
>
> > thanx...
>
> > Skyslider
>
> > 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>
> Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
> I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
> I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
>
> I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
> 2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
> tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
> top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
> short right corner isn't an issue.
>
> Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
> stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
> for off road 'or' snow roads.
>
> What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
> but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
> valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
> to occur.
>
> Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
> the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
> than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
> ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
> corner under engine load instead of brake load.
>
> I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
> how it reacts.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
OK I'll take that as a "No" for daily urban driving. I'm in the SoCal
desert...so exnay on the snow but thanks anyway. We don't shovel snow-
we just dream about it..
Skyslider
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
Skyslider wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:21 am, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Skyslider wrote:
>>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>>> miles several times per week.
>>> thanx...
>>> Skyslider
>>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>> Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
>> I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
>> I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
>>
>> I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
>> 2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
>> tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
>> top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
>> short right corner isn't an issue.
>>
>> Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
>> stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
>> for off road 'or' snow roads.
>>
>> What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
>> but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
>> valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
>> to occur.
>>
>> Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
>> the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
>> than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
>> ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
>> corner under engine load instead of brake load.
>>
>> I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
>> how it reacts.
>>
>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
>> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>
> OK I'll take that as a "No" for daily urban driving. I'm in the SoCal
> desert...so exnay on the snow but thanks anyway. We don't shovel snow-
> we just dream about it..
>
> Skyslider
The part time system locks axles so a tire has to scuff or something
'will' break when the drivetrain winds up. I have blown U-joints from
getting 'stuck' in 4x4 after the snow stopped (it wound up before I
could shift) with no place to safely get off the road to get out of 4x4
by backing up and know folks that have exploded t-cases into pieces.
If you have a 'full time' 4x4, it can be used anytime you need more
traction. It has a center slip point.
Mike
> On Feb 1, 8:21 am, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Skyslider wrote:
>>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>>> miles several times per week.
>>> thanx...
>>> Skyslider
>>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>> Jeeps have a shift on the fly at any legal speed feature which is nice.
>> I treat it just like any other shift, when I see a snow patch coming,
>> I shift into 4x4, when I see it ending I shift back.
>>
>> I also find making left turns at snowy intersections can be best done in
>> 2 WD because the part time 4x4 locks the front and rear axles so one
>> tire has to scuff when going around a corner. This can get you up on
>> top of the snow in the long corner so it wants to go straight. The
>> short right corner isn't an issue.
>>
>> Another really 'big' gotcha is braking. The owners manual even says to
>> stay off the brakes when in 4x4, use the gears to slow down. This goes
>> for off road 'or' snow roads.
>>
>> What happens when you hit the brakes hard is the front tires can skid,
>> but the back ones keep on rolling due to the proportioning valve. This
>> valve is to prevent rear wheel lockup which can cause uncontrolled 360's
>> to occur.
>>
>> Well, when you are in part time 4x4 which locks the axles, when you hit
>> the brakes, all 4 wheels lock up which puts you going sideways faster
>> than you can blink. That's why you see lots of 4x4's off the sides of
>> ramps, they used the brakes instead of gearing down and coming into the
>> corner under engine load instead of brake load.
>>
>> I highly recommend an empty snowy parking lot for a test drive to see
>> how it reacts.
>>
>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
>> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>
> OK I'll take that as a "No" for daily urban driving. I'm in the SoCal
> desert...so exnay on the snow but thanks anyway. We don't shovel snow-
> we just dream about it..
>
> Skyslider
The part time system locks axles so a tire has to scuff or something
'will' break when the drivetrain winds up. I have blown U-joints from
getting 'stuck' in 4x4 after the snow stopped (it wound up before I
could shift) with no place to safely get off the road to get out of 4x4
by backing up and know folks that have exploded t-cases into pieces.
If you have a 'full time' 4x4, it can be used anytime you need more
traction. It has a center slip point.
Mike
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
If you have the selec-trac transfer case then you can use 4x4 on the street
whenever you like, as it has full time 4x4.
If you have the comand-trac transfer case, you only have part time 4x4,
which should only be used on very slipery road surfaces and at low speeds.
Regards,
Bill Spiliotopoulos,
'96XJ,
'06TJ.
"Skyslider" <lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:f0cbd4af-e5df-4e40-a5d4-bc0993c44176@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> miles several times per week.
>
> thanx...
>
> Skyslider
>
> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
whenever you like, as it has full time 4x4.
If you have the comand-trac transfer case, you only have part time 4x4,
which should only be used on very slipery road surfaces and at low speeds.
Regards,
Bill Spiliotopoulos,
'96XJ,
'06TJ.
"Skyslider" <lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:f0cbd4af-e5df-4e40-a5d4-bc0993c44176@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> miles several times per week.
>
> thanx...
>
> Skyslider
>
> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
<lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote:
>I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
>I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>miles several times per week.
>
>thanx...
>
>Skyslider
>
>2008 Liberty Ltd.
Why would you want to do that?
<lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote:
>I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
>I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>miles several times per week.
>
>thanx...
>
>Skyslider
>
>2008 Liberty Ltd.
Why would you want to do that?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>
> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> >Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> >I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> >miles several times per week.
>
> >thanx...
>
> >Skyslider
>
> >2008 Liberty Ltd.
>
> Why would you want to do that?
Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
(lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
Skyslider
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>
> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> >Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>
> >I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> >miles several times per week.
>
> >thanx...
>
> >Skyslider
>
> >2008 Liberty Ltd.
>
> Why would you want to do that?
Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
(lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
Skyslider
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
Skyslider wrote:
> On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>>
>> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>>> miles several times per week.
>>> thanx...
>>> Skyslider
>>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>> Why would you want to do that?
>
> Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
> (lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
> engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
> have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
> Skyslider
What does it say on the shifter handle?
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
> On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>>
>> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>>> miles several times per week.
>>> thanx...
>>> Skyslider
>>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
>> Why would you want to do that?
>
> Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
> (lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
> engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
> have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
> Skyslider
What does it say on the shifter handle?
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
On Feb 1, 11:22 am, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Skyslider wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>
> >> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> >>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
> >>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> >>> miles several times per week.
> >>> thanx...
> >>> Skyslider
> >>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
> >> Why would you want to do that?
>
> > Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
> > (lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
> > engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
> > have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
> > Skyslider
>
> What does it say on the shifter handle?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
2 WHEEL DRIVE
4 WHEEL DRIVE LOCK
4 WHEEL DRIVE LOW
Skyslider
> Skyslider wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>
> >> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >>> I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
> >>> Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
> >>> I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
> >>> miles several times per week.
> >>> thanx...
> >>> Skyslider
> >>> 2008 Liberty Ltd.
> >> Why would you want to do that?
>
> > Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
> > (lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
> > engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
> > have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
> > Skyslider
>
> What does it say on the shifter handle?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
2 WHEEL DRIVE
4 WHEEL DRIVE LOCK
4 WHEEL DRIVE LOW
Skyslider
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 4X4 Urban Driving Suggestions for Newbie
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:09:19 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
<lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote:
>On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>>
>> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> >I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>> >Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>
>> >I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>> >miles several times per week.
>>
>> >thanx...
>>
>> >Skyslider
>>
>> >2008 Liberty Ltd.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that?
>
>Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
>(lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
>engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
>have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
>Skyslider
Only on non-paved, non-sticky surfaces. Never on pavement, or hard
packed roads.
<lassie81623@mypacks.net> wrote:
>On Feb 1, 10:38 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:27:47 -0800 (PST), Skyslider
>>
>> <lassie81...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> >I have a 2 mile grade to climb while going into town almost daily. Can/
>> >Should I use the 4X4 feature for this grade at about 50 mph?
>>
>> >I also have to drive a somewhat windy mountain Highway road for 4
>> >miles several times per week.
>>
>> >thanx...
>>
>> >Skyslider
>>
>> >2008 Liberty Ltd.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that?
>
>Because I live in a semi-rural community with varied desert terrain
>(lots of sandy soil) and grades. I was wondering when and where to
>engage the 4X4 other than snow or rain. To answer previous posters--I
>have no idea what type of 4X4 this 2008 Liberty is...
>
>Skyslider
Only on non-paved, non-sticky surfaces. Never on pavement, or hard
packed roads.
