Lon

Are the Libby brakes subject to the conflicting design of reducing
weight everywhere and keeping costs down by refusing to just move up to
rotors that are both lighter and more warp resistant?

I've seen a few different types of vehicles where the factory rotors
could be replaced with tin foil and be more robust.


Earle Horton proclaimed:

> I am not familiar with the Liberty axle design, but I have seen disks turned
> while on the hub. I don't see how you could turn one, without taking the
> disk or the hub off the vehicle and mounting it in a lathe. It is possible
> that Mike's theory is correct, and that this dealer's use of air impact
> wrenches generates a lot of brake work for him. I don't know how you could
> prove it though. You are going to say, "You messed up my brake disks" and
> they are going to say, "Your driving style is out of our control, and that
> is why the manufacturer does not warranty brakes".
>
> If you have this many questions about the dealer's service department, it
> wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. There must be lots of brake and
> muffler shops in your town.
>
> Earle
>
> "Fred" <fse6041@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1WmEg.20489$yE1.3751@trndny02...
>
>>I had the tires rotated at 12,000 miles by the dealer, nothing else has
>
> been
>
>>done to the vehicle. I feel that the rotors should not wear or warp at
>>18,000 miles, and is it necessary to have them turned on the vehicle, or
>
> are
>
>>they just trying to get me to have the dealer do the job?
>>
>>Fred
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
>>news:44e1efeb$0$19102$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com...
>>
>>>I have 80,000 miles on the brakes on my 1995 Wrangler, with no work
>>>performed on them except for an occasional fluid flush and inspection of
>>>the
>>>front pads and the rear shoes. Your theory makes some sense. In 18,231
>>>miles the OP maybe had the tires rotated once, enough to get the rotors
>>>warped if they used an impact wrench.
>>>
>>>Fred, what work have you had done on the vehicle previously?
>>>Specifically,
>>>have you had the wheels taken off before, and why?
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44E1E064.E5D4C1BA@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>It would appear it is a really common scam the $tealerships are pulling
>>>>these days.
>>>>
>>>>They use an impact gun to install the tires and the rotors warp. They
>>>>then sucker you for a turn and use the impact gun again on the tires so
>>>>the turn doesn't last at all. They are 'supposed' to finish
>
> tightening
>
>>>>the wheels by hand with a torque wrench so the lugs push evenly on the
>>>>rotors.
>>>>
>>>>If you go into their shop, I will bet you will see the so called
>
> 'techs'
>
>>>>just hammering wheels on with no torque wrench to be seen.
>>>>
>>>>Even if they claim they use 'torque sticks' on their gun, these are not
>>>>accurate enough to prevent warpage. New out of the box, those sticks
>>>>are still +/- something like 15% which can make a 30 ft lb up or down
>>>>difference at 100 ft lb of torque.
>>>>
>>>>Half the time, rather than replace, the rotors get turned under
>>>>warranty, then they hammer the wheels back on and the next one is a
>>>>replacement just after the warranty is up.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Fred wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of
>>>
>>>2003.
>>>
>>>>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer
>>>>>told
>>>
>>>me
>>>
>>>>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it
>
> was
>
>>>not
>>>
>>>>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I
>>>>>would
>>>>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price
>>>>>was
>>>>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they
>
> are
>
>>>>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this
>>>
>>>problem
>>>
>>>>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>>>
>>>
>
>

Lon

Are the Libby brakes subject to the conflicting design of reducing
weight everywhere and keeping costs down by refusing to just move up to
rotors that are both lighter and more warp resistant?

I've seen a few different types of vehicles where the factory rotors
could be replaced with tin foil and be more robust.


Earle Horton proclaimed:

> I am not familiar with the Liberty axle design, but I have seen disks turned
> while on the hub. I don't see how you could turn one, without taking the
> disk or the hub off the vehicle and mounting it in a lathe. It is possible
> that Mike's theory is correct, and that this dealer's use of air impact
> wrenches generates a lot of brake work for him. I don't know how you could
> prove it though. You are going to say, "You messed up my brake disks" and
> they are going to say, "Your driving style is out of our control, and that
> is why the manufacturer does not warranty brakes".
>
> If you have this many questions about the dealer's service department, it
> wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. There must be lots of brake and
> muffler shops in your town.
>
> Earle
>
> "Fred" <fse6041@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1WmEg.20489$yE1.3751@trndny02...
>
>>I had the tires rotated at 12,000 miles by the dealer, nothing else has
>
> been
>
>>done to the vehicle. I feel that the rotors should not wear or warp at
>>18,000 miles, and is it necessary to have them turned on the vehicle, or
>
> are
>
>>they just trying to get me to have the dealer do the job?
>>
>>Fred
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
>>news:44e1efeb$0$19102$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com...
>>
>>>I have 80,000 miles on the brakes on my 1995 Wrangler, with no work
>>>performed on them except for an occasional fluid flush and inspection of
>>>the
>>>front pads and the rear shoes. Your theory makes some sense. In 18,231
>>>miles the OP maybe had the tires rotated once, enough to get the rotors
>>>warped if they used an impact wrench.
>>>
>>>Fred, what work have you had done on the vehicle previously?
>>>Specifically,
>>>have you had the wheels taken off before, and why?
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44E1E064.E5D4C1BA@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>It would appear it is a really common scam the $tealerships are pulling
>>>>these days.
>>>>
>>>>They use an impact gun to install the tires and the rotors warp. They
>>>>then sucker you for a turn and use the impact gun again on the tires so
>>>>the turn doesn't last at all. They are 'supposed' to finish
>
> tightening
>
>>>>the wheels by hand with a torque wrench so the lugs push evenly on the
>>>>rotors.
>>>>
>>>>If you go into their shop, I will bet you will see the so called
>
> 'techs'
>
>>>>just hammering wheels on with no torque wrench to be seen.
>>>>
>>>>Even if they claim they use 'torque sticks' on their gun, these are not
>>>>accurate enough to prevent warpage. New out of the box, those sticks
>>>>are still +/- something like 15% which can make a 30 ft lb up or down
>>>>difference at 100 ft lb of torque.
>>>>
>>>>Half the time, rather than replace, the rotors get turned under
>>>>warranty, then they hammer the wheels back on and the next one is a
>>>>replacement just after the warranty is up.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Fred wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of
>>>
>>>2003.
>>>
>>>>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer
>>>>>told
>>>
>>>me
>>>
>>>>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it
>
> was
>
>>>not
>>>
>>>>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I
>>>>>would
>>>>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price
>>>>>was
>>>>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they
>
> are
>
>>>>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this
>>>
>>>problem
>>>
>>>>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>>>
>>>
>
>

Lon

Are the Libby brakes subject to the conflicting design of reducing
weight everywhere and keeping costs down by refusing to just move up to
rotors that are both lighter and more warp resistant?

I've seen a few different types of vehicles where the factory rotors
could be replaced with tin foil and be more robust.


Earle Horton proclaimed:

> I am not familiar with the Liberty axle design, but I have seen disks turned
> while on the hub. I don't see how you could turn one, without taking the
> disk or the hub off the vehicle and mounting it in a lathe. It is possible
> that Mike's theory is correct, and that this dealer's use of air impact
> wrenches generates a lot of brake work for him. I don't know how you could
> prove it though. You are going to say, "You messed up my brake disks" and
> they are going to say, "Your driving style is out of our control, and that
> is why the manufacturer does not warranty brakes".
>
> If you have this many questions about the dealer's service department, it
> wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. There must be lots of brake and
> muffler shops in your town.
>
> Earle
>
> "Fred" <fse6041@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1WmEg.20489$yE1.3751@trndny02...
>
>>I had the tires rotated at 12,000 miles by the dealer, nothing else has
>
> been
>
>>done to the vehicle. I feel that the rotors should not wear or warp at
>>18,000 miles, and is it necessary to have them turned on the vehicle, or
>
> are
>
>>they just trying to get me to have the dealer do the job?
>>
>>Fred
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote in message
>>news:44e1efeb$0$19102$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com...
>>
>>>I have 80,000 miles on the brakes on my 1995 Wrangler, with no work
>>>performed on them except for an occasional fluid flush and inspection of
>>>the
>>>front pads and the rear shoes. Your theory makes some sense. In 18,231
>>>miles the OP maybe had the tires rotated once, enough to get the rotors
>>>warped if they used an impact wrench.
>>>
>>>Fred, what work have you had done on the vehicle previously?
>>>Specifically,
>>>have you had the wheels taken off before, and why?
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44E1E064.E5D4C1BA@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>It would appear it is a really common scam the $tealerships are pulling
>>>>these days.
>>>>
>>>>They use an impact gun to install the tires and the rotors warp. They
>>>>then sucker you for a turn and use the impact gun again on the tires so
>>>>the turn doesn't last at all. They are 'supposed' to finish
>
> tightening
>
>>>>the wheels by hand with a torque wrench so the lugs push evenly on the
>>>>rotors.
>>>>
>>>>If you go into their shop, I will bet you will see the so called
>
> 'techs'
>
>>>>just hammering wheels on with no torque wrench to be seen.
>>>>
>>>>Even if they claim they use 'torque sticks' on their gun, these are not
>>>>accurate enough to prevent warpage. New out of the box, those sticks
>>>>are still +/- something like 15% which can make a 30 ft lb up or down
>>>>difference at 100 ft lb of torque.
>>>>
>>>>Half the time, rather than replace, the rotors get turned under
>>>>warranty, then they hammer the wheels back on and the next one is a
>>>>replacement just after the warranty is up.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Fred wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of
>>>
>>>2003.
>>>
>>>>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer
>>>>>told
>>>
>>>me
>>>
>>>>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it
>
> was
>
>>>not
>>>
>>>>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I
>>>>>would
>>>>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price
>>>>>was
>>>>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they
>
> are
>
>>>>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this
>>>
>>>problem
>>>
>>>>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>>>
>>>
>
>

Lon

Or you could buy a good set of premium aftermarket rotors and swap them
yourself.

philthy proclaimed:

> what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
> rotors you will be better off in the long run
>
> Fred wrote:
>
>
>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of 2003.
>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer told me
>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it was not
>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I would
>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price was
>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that the
>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they are
>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this problem
>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors have to
>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>
>

Lon

Or you could buy a good set of premium aftermarket rotors and swap them
yourself.

philthy proclaimed:

> what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
> rotors you will be better off in the long run
>
> Fred wrote:
>
>
>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of 2003.
>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer told me
>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it was not
>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I would
>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price was
>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that the
>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they are
>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this problem
>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors have to
>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>
>

Lon

Or you could buy a good set of premium aftermarket rotors and swap them
yourself.

philthy proclaimed:

> what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
> rotors you will be better off in the long run
>
> Fred wrote:
>
>
>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of 2003.
>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer told me
>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it was not
>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I would
>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price was
>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that the
>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they are
>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this problem
>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors have to
>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>
>

Lon

Or you could buy a good set of premium aftermarket rotors and swap them
yourself.

philthy proclaimed:

> what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
> rotors you will be better off in the long run
>
> Fred wrote:
>
>
>>I have a 2004 Jeep Liberty that I purchased brand new in November of 2003.
>>I have 18,231 miles on it and the brake rotors are bad. The dealer told me
>>that they need to be turned. I was not happy with the fact that it was not
>>covered under their 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. I told them I would
>>take it somewhere else to have the rotors turned because their price was
>>ridiculous. The Service Manager told me that I should make sure that the
>>rotors were turned on the vehicle because that is the only way they are
>>supposed to be done on the Jeep Liberty. Has anyone else had this problem
>>with only 18,000 miles on their Jeep and is it true that the rotors have to
>>be turned on the vehicle? Thanks for any comments on this problem.
>
>

Lon

Yeah, sadly there are all levels of dealer service.

My old dealer was aggressive in making sure that if there was an updated
or recall part he could swap under a warranty, he would tell me. And
even throw in something such as a serpentine replacement for the cost of
the belt since they were in that area for the warrantied issue. Or toss
in oxygen sensors for cost when replacing the catalyst under warranty.
It kept my repair costs down and i suspect made them money with those
minor addins probably helping them break even on warranty costs.


They appear to be a vanishing breed unfortunately. So now I'm looking
for an independent specialist since I rarely have time any more, plus I
hate those next day back aches.


L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> The calipers on a WJ, the Stealership felt were out of align and
> were replaced along with the rotors under warranty:
> http://www.----------.com/WJCaliber.jpg
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> philthy wrote:
>
>>what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
>>rotors you will be better off in the long run

Lon

Yeah, sadly there are all levels of dealer service.

My old dealer was aggressive in making sure that if there was an updated
or recall part he could swap under a warranty, he would tell me. And
even throw in something such as a serpentine replacement for the cost of
the belt since they were in that area for the warrantied issue. Or toss
in oxygen sensors for cost when replacing the catalyst under warranty.
It kept my repair costs down and i suspect made them money with those
minor addins probably helping them break even on warranty costs.


They appear to be a vanishing breed unfortunately. So now I'm looking
for an independent specialist since I rarely have time any more, plus I
hate those next day back aches.


L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> The calipers on a WJ, the Stealership felt were out of align and
> were replaced along with the rotors under warranty:
> http://www.----------.com/WJCaliber.jpg
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> philthy wrote:
>
>>what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
>>rotors you will be better off in the long run

Lon

Yeah, sadly there are all levels of dealer service.

My old dealer was aggressive in making sure that if there was an updated
or recall part he could swap under a warranty, he would tell me. And
even throw in something such as a serpentine replacement for the cost of
the belt since they were in that area for the warrantied issue. Or toss
in oxygen sensors for cost when replacing the catalyst under warranty.
It kept my repair costs down and i suspect made them money with those
minor addins probably helping them break even on warranty costs.


They appear to be a vanishing breed unfortunately. So now I'm looking
for an independent specialist since I rarely have time any more, plus I
hate those next day back aches.


L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:

> The calipers on a WJ, the Stealership felt were out of align and
> were replaced along with the rotors under warranty:
> http://www.----------.com/WJCaliber.jpg
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> philthy wrote:
>
>>what a load of ---- he gave u! get some autozone rotors and forget turning the
>>rotors you will be better off in the long run