Lee Ayrton

Not that his has -----all to do with jeeps or ******, but:

Matt Osborn wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>
>>no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>
> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
> benefit packages.

Delphi is shipping water because their business model -- and the big GM
teat that it suckles on, didn't adapt to change. GM wasn't under any
union obligation to pack their dealer's lots with Escalades at 13MPG
while ignoring that there's a shooting war in the oil-rich middle east,
they did that all by their lonesome, thinking that they'd make big cars
with big profit margins today instead of having a plan for half a decade
down the road. Was GM going to maintain their market share forever?
No, but they -- and the unions -- clearly thought that they would.


> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
> union members as well.

Those were contracts that were written when both sides of the table
figured that the gravy train would continue to roll. You could,
depending on your bias, lay the blame at any number of other parties: GM
for underfunding their pension plan by some $31 billion[1], stock buyers
for not only encouraging such madness but rewarding the company for
doing so, the federal government for failing to prevent companies from
underfunding pensions, the medical system for being so efficient at
keeping retirees from dying early, other companies for making cars that
outsold GM's, and so on.

As it is, Delphi isn't on the hook for the whole nut: "As as part of the
[1999] spin-off deal, GM agreed to back the pension, life insurance and
retiree health benefits of its former workers at Delphi." [2]

I recall when Lee Iacocca slyly suggested that it might be in the
country's best interest if the federal government just "forgave" that
bailout loan that they got. Fortunately it wasn't.


> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?

Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate, you -- and I -- are going to
pay either way. Either we pay for the retirement of past employees out
of current company profits -- that means paid for by consumers, or we
pay for out of tax revenue, and that means paid for by workers, or GM
and Delphi collapse and we pay for it in lost investment. In any case,
if the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation does have to take over a
plan it caps the benefits at $43,977 a year. For a lot of professionals
that's half of what they had planned on having for their service to
their employer. Do I want to pay for it out of taxes? Hell, no, but at
least there's a cap.

Oh, and poor Delphi? Their Board of Directors are getting between
$120,000 and $200,000 a year in cash after managing the company into the
ground, their new CEO got a $3 million signing bonus and 600 of their
executives stand to get a average of 2/3 of a million dollars each if
they don't jump ship. [4] It's good work if you can get it, I guess.
Who is bleeding the company white?



[1]<URL:http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2005-12-06-eroding-pensions_x.htm>

[2]<URL:http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/AUTO01/512020329/1148>

[3]<URL:http://www.ridgecrestca.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/columnists/colo02.txt>

[4]<URL:http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/BUSINESS01/512100370/1014/BUSINESS>

Lee Ayrton

Not that his has -----all to do with jeeps or ******, but:

Matt Osborn wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>
>>no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>
> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
> benefit packages.

Delphi is shipping water because their business model -- and the big GM
teat that it suckles on, didn't adapt to change. GM wasn't under any
union obligation to pack their dealer's lots with Escalades at 13MPG
while ignoring that there's a shooting war in the oil-rich middle east,
they did that all by their lonesome, thinking that they'd make big cars
with big profit margins today instead of having a plan for half a decade
down the road. Was GM going to maintain their market share forever?
No, but they -- and the unions -- clearly thought that they would.


> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
> union members as well.

Those were contracts that were written when both sides of the table
figured that the gravy train would continue to roll. You could,
depending on your bias, lay the blame at any number of other parties: GM
for underfunding their pension plan by some $31 billion[1], stock buyers
for not only encouraging such madness but rewarding the company for
doing so, the federal government for failing to prevent companies from
underfunding pensions, the medical system for being so efficient at
keeping retirees from dying early, other companies for making cars that
outsold GM's, and so on.

As it is, Delphi isn't on the hook for the whole nut: "As as part of the
[1999] spin-off deal, GM agreed to back the pension, life insurance and
retiree health benefits of its former workers at Delphi." [2]

I recall when Lee Iacocca slyly suggested that it might be in the
country's best interest if the federal government just "forgave" that
bailout loan that they got. Fortunately it wasn't.


> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?

Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate, you -- and I -- are going to
pay either way. Either we pay for the retirement of past employees out
of current company profits -- that means paid for by consumers, or we
pay for out of tax revenue, and that means paid for by workers, or GM
and Delphi collapse and we pay for it in lost investment. In any case,
if the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation does have to take over a
plan it caps the benefits at $43,977 a year. For a lot of professionals
that's half of what they had planned on having for their service to
their employer. Do I want to pay for it out of taxes? Hell, no, but at
least there's a cap.

Oh, and poor Delphi? Their Board of Directors are getting between
$120,000 and $200,000 a year in cash after managing the company into the
ground, their new CEO got a $3 million signing bonus and 600 of their
executives stand to get a average of 2/3 of a million dollars each if
they don't jump ship. [4] It's good work if you can get it, I guess.
Who is bleeding the company white?



[1]<URL:http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2005-12-06-eroding-pensions_x.htm>

[2]<URL:http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/AUTO01/512020329/1148>

[3]<URL:http://www.ridgecrestca.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/columnists/colo02.txt>

[4]<URL:http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/BUSINESS01/512100370/1014/BUSINESS>

Matt Osborn

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:32:02 -0500, Lee Ayrton <layrton@panix.com>
wrote:

>Not that his has -----all to do with jeeps or ******, but:
>
>Matt Osborn wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>>
>>>no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>>
>> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
>> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
>> benefit packages.
>
>Delphi is shipping water because their business model -- and the big GM
>teat that it suckles on, didn't adapt to change. GM wasn't under any
>union obligation to pack their dealer's lots with Escalades at 13MPG
>while ignoring that there's a shooting war in the oil-rich middle east,
>they did that all by their lonesome, thinking that they'd make big cars
>with big profit margins today instead of having a plan for half a decade
>down the road. Was GM going to maintain their market share forever?
>No, but they -- and the unions -- clearly thought that they would.

All of those manufacturers and their unions have known for forty years
that they were killing their golden goose. They are both responsible
for their problems. Those Escalades you mention amount only to a
minor irritant in the scheme of things. It is the retirement benefits
that are bringing down both of them.

>
>> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
>> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
>> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
>> union members as well.
>
>Those were contracts that were written when both sides of the table
>figured that the gravy train would continue to roll. You could,
>depending on your bias, lay the blame at any number of other parties: GM
>for underfunding their pension plan by some $31 billion[1], stock buyers
>for not only encouraging such madness but rewarding the company for
>doing so, the federal government for failing to prevent companies from
>underfunding pensions, the medical system for being so efficient at
>keeping retirees from dying early, other companies for making cars that
>outsold GM's, and so on.

I'm not taking sides. Both parties are responsible for the failure.

>As it is, Delphi isn't on the hook for the whole nut: "As as part of the
>[1999] spin-off deal, GM agreed to back the pension, life insurance and
>retiree health benefits of its former workers at Delphi." [2]
>
>I recall when Lee Iacocca slyly suggested that it might be in the
>country's best interest if the federal government just "forgave" that
>bailout loan that they got. Fortunately it wasn't.

I'm not limiting my argument to Delphi or even auto manufacturers. As
it is, all organizations, from auto makers to airlines, that allowed
their unions to steamroll them (yes, the manufacturers are just as
guilty as the unions) are currently collapsing.

>
>> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
>> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
>> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
>Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate, you -- and I -- are going to
>pay either way. Either we pay for the retirement of past employees out
>of current company profits -- that means paid for by consumers, or we
>pay for out of tax revenue, and that means paid for by workers, or GM
>and Delphi collapse and we pay for it in lost investment.

I'm afraid the consumers have already opted out of the 'reward the
foolish' program. Toyota, Honda, et. al. have been eating their lunch
for years.

Real companies, with real products and real jobs have been locked out
of the market for 70 years due to this unrealistic business model.
We've already lost our investment, now it is simply a matter of
throwing good money after bad.

> In any case,
>if the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation does have to take over a
>plan it caps the benefits at $43,977 a year. For a lot of professionals
>that's half of what they had planned on having for their service to
>their employer. Do I want to pay for it out of taxes? Hell, no, but at
>least there's a cap.

Only half what they expected? Oh, those poor workers, only $44,000
dollars a year above and beyond what the rest of us receive. How will
they ever survive?

Sorry, they get no sympathy from me. All involved, from management to
floor sweepers are responsible for the failure.

>Oh, and poor Delphi? Their Board of Directors are getting between
>$120,000 and $200,000 a year in cash after managing the company into the
>ground, their new CEO got a $3 million signing bonus and 600 of their
>executives stand to get a average of 2/3 of a million dollars each if
>they don't jump ship. [4] It's good work if you can get it, I guess.
>Who is bleeding the company white?

Let them go under now, right along with their employees,investors and
fraudulent business practices. Just break them up and sell the pieces.

There are future generations that need jobs, and there are investment
monies that will provide them if we sweep these corrupt, bankrupt
organizations out of the way.

>
>[1]<URL:http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2005-12-06-eroding-pensions_x.htm>
>
>[2]<URL:http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/AUTO01/512020329/1148>
>
>[3]<URL:http://www.ridgecrestca.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/columnists/colo02.txt>
>
>[4]<URL:http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/BUSINESS01/512100370/1014/BUSINESS>



-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:32:02 -0500, Lee Ayrton <layrton@panix.com>
wrote:

>Not that his has -----all to do with jeeps or ******, but:
>
>Matt Osborn wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>>
>>>no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>>
>> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
>> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
>> benefit packages.
>
>Delphi is shipping water because their business model -- and the big GM
>teat that it suckles on, didn't adapt to change. GM wasn't under any
>union obligation to pack their dealer's lots with Escalades at 13MPG
>while ignoring that there's a shooting war in the oil-rich middle east,
>they did that all by their lonesome, thinking that they'd make big cars
>with big profit margins today instead of having a plan for half a decade
>down the road. Was GM going to maintain their market share forever?
>No, but they -- and the unions -- clearly thought that they would.

All of those manufacturers and their unions have known for forty years
that they were killing their golden goose. They are both responsible
for their problems. Those Escalades you mention amount only to a
minor irritant in the scheme of things. It is the retirement benefits
that are bringing down both of them.

>
>> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
>> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
>> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
>> union members as well.
>
>Those were contracts that were written when both sides of the table
>figured that the gravy train would continue to roll. You could,
>depending on your bias, lay the blame at any number of other parties: GM
>for underfunding their pension plan by some $31 billion[1], stock buyers
>for not only encouraging such madness but rewarding the company for
>doing so, the federal government for failing to prevent companies from
>underfunding pensions, the medical system for being so efficient at
>keeping retirees from dying early, other companies for making cars that
>outsold GM's, and so on.

I'm not taking sides. Both parties are responsible for the failure.

>As it is, Delphi isn't on the hook for the whole nut: "As as part of the
>[1999] spin-off deal, GM agreed to back the pension, life insurance and
>retiree health benefits of its former workers at Delphi." [2]
>
>I recall when Lee Iacocca slyly suggested that it might be in the
>country's best interest if the federal government just "forgave" that
>bailout loan that they got. Fortunately it wasn't.

I'm not limiting my argument to Delphi or even auto manufacturers. As
it is, all organizations, from auto makers to airlines, that allowed
their unions to steamroll them (yes, the manufacturers are just as
guilty as the unions) are currently collapsing.

>
>> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
>> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
>> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
>Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate, you -- and I -- are going to
>pay either way. Either we pay for the retirement of past employees out
>of current company profits -- that means paid for by consumers, or we
>pay for out of tax revenue, and that means paid for by workers, or GM
>and Delphi collapse and we pay for it in lost investment.

I'm afraid the consumers have already opted out of the 'reward the
foolish' program. Toyota, Honda, et. al. have been eating their lunch
for years.

Real companies, with real products and real jobs have been locked out
of the market for 70 years due to this unrealistic business model.
We've already lost our investment, now it is simply a matter of
throwing good money after bad.

> In any case,
>if the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation does have to take over a
>plan it caps the benefits at $43,977 a year. For a lot of professionals
>that's half of what they had planned on having for their service to
>their employer. Do I want to pay for it out of taxes? Hell, no, but at
>least there's a cap.

Only half what they expected? Oh, those poor workers, only $44,000
dollars a year above and beyond what the rest of us receive. How will
they ever survive?

Sorry, they get no sympathy from me. All involved, from management to
floor sweepers are responsible for the failure.

>Oh, and poor Delphi? Their Board of Directors are getting between
>$120,000 and $200,000 a year in cash after managing the company into the
>ground, their new CEO got a $3 million signing bonus and 600 of their
>executives stand to get a average of 2/3 of a million dollars each if
>they don't jump ship. [4] It's good work if you can get it, I guess.
>Who is bleeding the company white?

Let them go under now, right along with their employees,investors and
fraudulent business practices. Just break them up and sell the pieces.

There are future generations that need jobs, and there are investment
monies that will provide them if we sweep these corrupt, bankrupt
organizations out of the way.

>
>[1]<URL:http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2005-12-06-eroding-pensions_x.htm>
>
>[2]<URL:http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/AUTO01/512020329/1148>
>
>[3]<URL:http://www.ridgecrestca.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/columnists/colo02.txt>
>
>[4]<URL:http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/BUSINESS01/512100370/1014/BUSINESS>



-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:32:02 -0500, Lee Ayrton <layrton@panix.com>
wrote:

>Not that his has -----all to do with jeeps or ******, but:
>
>Matt Osborn wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>>
>>>no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>>
>> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
>> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
>> benefit packages.
>
>Delphi is shipping water because their business model -- and the big GM
>teat that it suckles on, didn't adapt to change. GM wasn't under any
>union obligation to pack their dealer's lots with Escalades at 13MPG
>while ignoring that there's a shooting war in the oil-rich middle east,
>they did that all by their lonesome, thinking that they'd make big cars
>with big profit margins today instead of having a plan for half a decade
>down the road. Was GM going to maintain their market share forever?
>No, but they -- and the unions -- clearly thought that they would.

All of those manufacturers and their unions have known for forty years
that they were killing their golden goose. They are both responsible
for their problems. Those Escalades you mention amount only to a
minor irritant in the scheme of things. It is the retirement benefits
that are bringing down both of them.

>
>> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
>> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
>> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
>> union members as well.
>
>Those were contracts that were written when both sides of the table
>figured that the gravy train would continue to roll. You could,
>depending on your bias, lay the blame at any number of other parties: GM
>for underfunding their pension plan by some $31 billion[1], stock buyers
>for not only encouraging such madness but rewarding the company for
>doing so, the federal government for failing to prevent companies from
>underfunding pensions, the medical system for being so efficient at
>keeping retirees from dying early, other companies for making cars that
>outsold GM's, and so on.

I'm not taking sides. Both parties are responsible for the failure.

>As it is, Delphi isn't on the hook for the whole nut: "As as part of the
>[1999] spin-off deal, GM agreed to back the pension, life insurance and
>retiree health benefits of its former workers at Delphi." [2]
>
>I recall when Lee Iacocca slyly suggested that it might be in the
>country's best interest if the federal government just "forgave" that
>bailout loan that they got. Fortunately it wasn't.

I'm not limiting my argument to Delphi or even auto manufacturers. As
it is, all organizations, from auto makers to airlines, that allowed
their unions to steamroll them (yes, the manufacturers are just as
guilty as the unions) are currently collapsing.

>
>> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
>> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
>> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
>Well, just to play the Devil's Advocate, you -- and I -- are going to
>pay either way. Either we pay for the retirement of past employees out
>of current company profits -- that means paid for by consumers, or we
>pay for out of tax revenue, and that means paid for by workers, or GM
>and Delphi collapse and we pay for it in lost investment.

I'm afraid the consumers have already opted out of the 'reward the
foolish' program. Toyota, Honda, et. al. have been eating their lunch
for years.

Real companies, with real products and real jobs have been locked out
of the market for 70 years due to this unrealistic business model.
We've already lost our investment, now it is simply a matter of
throwing good money after bad.

> In any case,
>if the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation does have to take over a
>plan it caps the benefits at $43,977 a year. For a lot of professionals
>that's half of what they had planned on having for their service to
>their employer. Do I want to pay for it out of taxes? Hell, no, but at
>least there's a cap.

Only half what they expected? Oh, those poor workers, only $44,000
dollars a year above and beyond what the rest of us receive. How will
they ever survive?

Sorry, they get no sympathy from me. All involved, from management to
floor sweepers are responsible for the failure.

>Oh, and poor Delphi? Their Board of Directors are getting between
>$120,000 and $200,000 a year in cash after managing the company into the
>ground, their new CEO got a $3 million signing bonus and 600 of their
>executives stand to get a average of 2/3 of a million dollars each if
>they don't jump ship. [4] It's good work if you can get it, I guess.
>Who is bleeding the company white?

Let them go under now, right along with their employees,investors and
fraudulent business practices. Just break them up and sell the pieces.

There are future generations that need jobs, and there are investment
monies that will provide them if we sweep these corrupt, bankrupt
organizations out of the way.

>
>[1]<URL:http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2005-12-06-eroding-pensions_x.htm>
>
>[2]<URL:http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/AUTO01/512020329/1148>
>
>[3]<URL:http://www.ridgecrestca.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/columnists/colo02.txt>
>
>[4]<URL:http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051210/BUSINESS01/512100370/1014/BUSINESS>



-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

philthy

well lets see if the guy miller who runs the company forgos his 1.5 mill.
salary and fired all the 32 exec's who also made 1.5 mill base salary
each and this is public record (court docs)
the grand total; of those wages come to exactly what delphi filed for in
bankruptcy court and you want to blame the worker and now those 32 are
getting a 180 billion severance package i disagrre with you sir

Matt, Osborn wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>
> >no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>
> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
> benefit packages.
>
> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
> union members as well.
>
> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

philthy

well lets see if the guy miller who runs the company forgos his 1.5 mill.
salary and fired all the 32 exec's who also made 1.5 mill base salary
each and this is public record (court docs)
the grand total; of those wages come to exactly what delphi filed for in
bankruptcy court and you want to blame the worker and now those 32 are
getting a 180 billion severance package i disagrre with you sir

Matt, Osborn wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>
> >no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>
> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
> benefit packages.
>
> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
> union members as well.
>
> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

philthy

well lets see if the guy miller who runs the company forgos his 1.5 mill.
salary and fired all the 32 exec's who also made 1.5 mill base salary
each and this is public record (court docs)
the grand total; of those wages come to exactly what delphi filed for in
bankruptcy court and you want to blame the worker and now those 32 are
getting a 180 billion severance package i disagrre with you sir

Matt, Osborn wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>
> >no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>
> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
> benefit packages.
>
> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
> union members as well.
>
> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

You're missing my point. United Airlines dumped their responsibility
for their union contract benefits upon the general public. The
airline management gets to keep their cash cow and the unions get to
keep a portion of their benefits at our expense.

Northwest Airlines is now doing the same thing with a twist. They are
actually trying to dump the union benefits entirely. If the unions
refuse to allow this, then Northwest will dump the union contracts
upon the general public.

Delphi is about to follow the airline lead in these matters. They
will dump the union contracts upon the general public and will keep
their cash cow. After Delphi goes, so will Ford, Chrysler and GM.
Their simply isn't enough money to make good on the commitments.

Our government is complicit in this fraud and acts to sustain this
corrupt and broken system by allowing these organizations to abandon
their obligations and yet maintain their companies.

What ought to happen is that the companies should be liquidated and
the proceeds split up amongst the parties with valid claims
proportionately.

In this way, the management loses their cash cows, investors lose
their investment and the unions lose their excessive benefit packages.
This is the only way to stop these practices.

Both management and unions wanted (and took) as much money as they
could from their companies. Unions always went after one company in a
particular industry at a time. Give us what we want or we'll shut you
down and the other companies will eat your lunch, was the threat. Once
one company fell in line, they would move to next and say, see what
they gave us, you do the same or we'll shut you down.

With the assistance of our government, these same organizations,
management and unions alike, are now attempting to take as much money
as they can from the rest of us.

In no case am I (or you) responsible for picking up the tab. This is
plain theft. The management and unions together, ruined their
companies. Let them both pay the price for their greed.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:28:04 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:

>well lets see if the guy miller who runs the company forgos his 1.5 mill.
>salary and fired all the 32 exec's who also made 1.5 mill base salary
>each and this is public record (court docs)
>the grand total; of those wages come to exactly what delphi filed for in
>bankruptcy court and you want to blame the worker and now those 32 are
>getting a 180 billion severance package i disagrre with you sir
>
>Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>>
>> >no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>>
>> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
>> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
>> benefit packages.
>>
>> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
>> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
>> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
>> union members as well.
>>
>> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
>> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
>> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>>
>> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com



-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

You're missing my point. United Airlines dumped their responsibility
for their union contract benefits upon the general public. The
airline management gets to keep their cash cow and the unions get to
keep a portion of their benefits at our expense.

Northwest Airlines is now doing the same thing with a twist. They are
actually trying to dump the union benefits entirely. If the unions
refuse to allow this, then Northwest will dump the union contracts
upon the general public.

Delphi is about to follow the airline lead in these matters. They
will dump the union contracts upon the general public and will keep
their cash cow. After Delphi goes, so will Ford, Chrysler and GM.
Their simply isn't enough money to make good on the commitments.

Our government is complicit in this fraud and acts to sustain this
corrupt and broken system by allowing these organizations to abandon
their obligations and yet maintain their companies.

What ought to happen is that the companies should be liquidated and
the proceeds split up amongst the parties with valid claims
proportionately.

In this way, the management loses their cash cows, investors lose
their investment and the unions lose their excessive benefit packages.
This is the only way to stop these practices.

Both management and unions wanted (and took) as much money as they
could from their companies. Unions always went after one company in a
particular industry at a time. Give us what we want or we'll shut you
down and the other companies will eat your lunch, was the threat. Once
one company fell in line, they would move to next and say, see what
they gave us, you do the same or we'll shut you down.

With the assistance of our government, these same organizations,
management and unions alike, are now attempting to take as much money
as they can from the rest of us.

In no case am I (or you) responsible for picking up the tab. This is
plain theft. The management and unions together, ruined their
companies. Let them both pay the price for their greed.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:28:04 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:

>well lets see if the guy miller who runs the company forgos his 1.5 mill.
>salary and fired all the 32 exec's who also made 1.5 mill base salary
>each and this is public record (court docs)
>the grand total; of those wages come to exactly what delphi filed for in
>bankruptcy court and you want to blame the worker and now those 32 are
>getting a 180 billion severance package i disagrre with you sir
>
>Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:51:29 -0500, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:
>>
>> >no actually gm makes crap hey maybe thats why delphi is going down
>>
>> Delphi (and many airlines and other manufacturers) are going down
>> because management made deals with their unions for unsustainable
>> benefit packages.
>>
>> We now face the specter of our government subsidizing both. Not only
>> are these companies going to be let off the hook for their disastrous
>> union contracts, but we are actually going to pick up the tab for the
>> union members as well.
>>
>> As one who has provided for his own retirement, I find the above
>> appalling. If union members are to have a publicly financed
>> retirement aside from SSI, why shouldn't everyone else?
>>
>> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com



-- msosborn at msosborn dot com