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Water Wetter
The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and
look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure water. So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
That stuff is for racing engines.
I don't like their 'snake oil' like claims. I read their site carefully. If you have an overheating problem, something mechanical is broke or not working right or not built right, like my 2 core rad with the winch and lights blocking it, I need a 4 core for 'my' application in hot weather. I bitched about my 2 core rad running too cold for heat inside in the winter before I got the winch and lights. You can chase symptoms forever, when fixing the cause is sooo much easier.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Joshua Nelson wrote: > > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
That stuff is for racing engines.
I don't like their 'snake oil' like claims. I read their site carefully. If you have an overheating problem, something mechanical is broke or not working right or not built right, like my 2 core rad with the winch and lights blocking it, I need a 4 core for 'my' application in hot weather. I bitched about my 2 core rad running too cold for heat inside in the winter before I got the winch and lights. You can chase symptoms forever, when fixing the cause is sooo much easier.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Joshua Nelson wrote: > > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Snake oil & "splitting hairs" advice.
What make a radiator degrade in performance is the 'salts' drop out of the (tap) water and foul the radiator surfaces. Either 1. use at least demineralized water or 2. Periodically desalt/descale the engine/radiator with boiler descaler products such as Marsolve® or Rydlyme® (not muriatic or other inorganic acid). What 'antifreeze' does is raise the temperature at which the coolant boils and lowers the temperature at which it freezes. The raising of boiling temperature is quite beneficial. The slight lessening of thermodynamic efficiency is minimal. But but but.... anti freeze contains rust corrosion inhibiters !!!!!! An engine run on pure water will start to corrode internally MUST faster and to a greater degree than one with such inhibiters. Joshua Nelson wrote: > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Snake oil & "splitting hairs" advice.
What make a radiator degrade in performance is the 'salts' drop out of the (tap) water and foul the radiator surfaces. Either 1. use at least demineralized water or 2. Periodically desalt/descale the engine/radiator with boiler descaler products such as Marsolve® or Rydlyme® (not muriatic or other inorganic acid). What 'antifreeze' does is raise the temperature at which the coolant boils and lowers the temperature at which it freezes. The raising of boiling temperature is quite beneficial. The slight lessening of thermodynamic efficiency is minimal. But but but.... anti freeze contains rust corrosion inhibiters !!!!!! An engine run on pure water will start to corrode internally MUST faster and to a greater degree than one with such inhibiters. Joshua Nelson wrote: > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Back in the days when the wheel was first invented, we only used water in
radiators, and we made lots of money every year flushing systems for people, and replacing stuff like freeze plugs that either rotted out or got pushed out from frozen water in the block. With the advent of Aluminum, it was discovered that the water actually rotted the aluminum and constantly ate away at it. Soon they discovered that anti freeze not only would keep from freezing, it also did not eat stuff like freeze plugs and aluminum. And, it didn't rust either. Sheesh, all this benefit and virtually no downside, except for the environmental issues that is. So, in the desert southwest where there is virtually no chance of freezing, it is true that you do not need anti freeze because you are worried about pushing the freeze plugs out. But, you might want anti freeze if you were worried that you were going to corrode the insides of the engine block or heads. Even back in the olden days, it wasn't the radiator that rusted so much as it was the rest of the engine that rusted and the rust got stuck in the radiator. Yes, sometimes the radiator would rust out, and that still happens today. But, the fact is that most rust in the radiator is merely stuck there, it came from somewhere else. "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Back in the days when the wheel was first invented, we only used water in
radiators, and we made lots of money every year flushing systems for people, and replacing stuff like freeze plugs that either rotted out or got pushed out from frozen water in the block. With the advent of Aluminum, it was discovered that the water actually rotted the aluminum and constantly ate away at it. Soon they discovered that anti freeze not only would keep from freezing, it also did not eat stuff like freeze plugs and aluminum. And, it didn't rust either. Sheesh, all this benefit and virtually no downside, except for the environmental issues that is. So, in the desert southwest where there is virtually no chance of freezing, it is true that you do not need anti freeze because you are worried about pushing the freeze plugs out. But, you might want anti freeze if you were worried that you were going to corrode the insides of the engine block or heads. Even back in the olden days, it wasn't the radiator that rusted so much as it was the rest of the engine that rusted and the rust got stuck in the radiator. Yes, sometimes the radiator would rust out, and that still happens today. But, the fact is that most rust in the radiator is merely stuck there, it came from somewhere else. "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a
sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded by aluminium components. "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a
sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded by aluminium components. "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Zinc.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ "A.H. MacIntosh aka USERNAME" wrote: > > many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a > sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am > unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling > system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded > by aluminium components. |
Re: Water Wetter
Zinc.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ "A.H. MacIntosh aka USERNAME" wrote: > > many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a > sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am > unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling > system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded > by aluminium components. |
Re: Water Wetter
L.W. (ßill) ------ III wrote:
> Zinc. Actually I think almost all radiators come with Zinc anodes. Can't think of one I havn't seen with one in there. But some newer cars found a solution for corrosion. Make the end caps out of plastic. :( I'm not sure that's a solution. > "A.H. MacIntosh aka USERNAME" wrote: >> >> many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a >> sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am >> unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling >> system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded >> by aluminium components. |
Re: Water Wetter
L.W. (ßill) ------ III wrote:
> Zinc. Actually I think almost all radiators come with Zinc anodes. Can't think of one I havn't seen with one in there. But some newer cars found a solution for corrosion. Make the end caps out of plastic. :( I'm not sure that's a solution. > "A.H. MacIntosh aka USERNAME" wrote: >> >> many exotic cars with Aluminium radiators, and steel blocks use a >> sacrificial anode plug to stop electrolysis of the system components. I am >> unsure about any wetting agents, but the natural tendency for you cooling >> system to become a battery and dissolve itself is a worry greatly compounded >> by aluminium components. |
Re: Water Wetter
Joshua,
In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in perfect working order, and is properly sized. Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. Water can absorb more heat than coolant. However, if you are going to play this game make sure that you don't get yourself into a situation where there is any chance that your cooling system will freeze, because it will. I run plain water and Water Wetter in the summer months (California Climate) and 50/50 coolant/water in the winter months. I don't need to do this, as my cooling system is way over built and works quite well, but just knowing that I am maximizing this make me feel better. And it works. If you use your Jeep off road in situations where you are crawling for extended periods of time, you need to over build and maximize. If you run mostly on the street, this is less important. RR "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
Joshua,
In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in perfect working order, and is properly sized. Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. Water can absorb more heat than coolant. However, if you are going to play this game make sure that you don't get yourself into a situation where there is any chance that your cooling system will freeze, because it will. I run plain water and Water Wetter in the summer months (California Climate) and 50/50 coolant/water in the winter months. I don't need to do this, as my cooling system is way over built and works quite well, but just knowing that I am maximizing this make me feel better. And it works. If you use your Jeep off road in situations where you are crawling for extended periods of time, you need to over build and maximize. If you run mostly on the street, this is less important. RR "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message news:b102b6e4.0309111216.5cea91c9@posting.google.c om... > The recent thread on aluminum radiators inspired me to go back and > look at some older discussions on radiators. One thing I saw > mentioned frequently is that in warm climates, if cooling is an issue, > you're better off running 100% water and maybe a bottle of water > wetter, rather than the more common car mixture of 50/50 water and > antifreeze. This is due to the better cooling properties of pure > water. > > So far so good. BUT... in addition to preventing your coolant water > from turning to ice, isn't there another very important function of > antifreeze? Namely, it keeps the innards of your radiator from > rusting. I would think that running mostly or 100% water all the time > would turn your cooling system guts to sludge... wouldn't it? |
Re: Water Wetter
I wouldn't chance running pure water, I remember selling rust
inhibitors that would stick the rust to the sides, and leave the water clear for a while, but not long before the water would turn to mud. And nowadays, with so much aluminum used the electrolysis would destroy everything, instantly. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Red Racer wrote: > > Joshua, > > In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would > still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is > not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what > you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in > perfect working order, and is properly sized. > > Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. > Water can absorb more heat than coolant. However, if you are going to play > this game make sure that you don't get yourself into a situation where there > is any chance that your cooling system will freeze, because it will. I run > plain water and Water Wetter in the summer months (California Climate) and > 50/50 coolant/water in the winter months. > > I don't need to do this, as my cooling system is way over built and works > quite well, but just knowing that I am maximizing this make me feel better. > And it works. If you use your Jeep off road in situations where you are > crawling for extended periods of time, you need to over build and maximize. > If you run mostly on the street, this is less important. > > RR |
Re: Water Wetter
I wouldn't chance running pure water, I remember selling rust
inhibitors that would stick the rust to the sides, and leave the water clear for a while, but not long before the water would turn to mud. And nowadays, with so much aluminum used the electrolysis would destroy everything, instantly. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Red Racer wrote: > > Joshua, > > In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would > still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is > not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what > you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in > perfect working order, and is properly sized. > > Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. > Water can absorb more heat than coolant. However, if you are going to play > this game make sure that you don't get yourself into a situation where there > is any chance that your cooling system will freeze, because it will. I run > plain water and Water Wetter in the summer months (California Climate) and > 50/50 coolant/water in the winter months. > > I don't need to do this, as my cooling system is way over built and works > quite well, but just knowing that I am maximizing this make me feel better. > And it works. If you use your Jeep off road in situations where you are > crawling for extended periods of time, you need to over build and maximize. > If you run mostly on the street, this is less important. > > RR |
Re: Water Wetter
> Periodically desalt/descale the
> engine/radiator with boiler descaler products such as Marsolve® or > Rydlyme® (not muriatic or other inorganic acid). How do you do this? Just put it in there, circulate, and then flush the radiator? Or something more involved? I flush the radiator from time to time, but have never heard of descaling before. This would probably be a good practice to start implementing if I can figure out how to do it. Also, I didn't realize there was a different recommended water/antifreeze mix for aluminum vs. copper radiators. Out of curiosity, what ratio is typical for aluminum? And FYI, I don't really have a problem with overheating, but I do run about 210 and some of the responders in the other thread said that was something to be nervous about, so I'm just thinking about overall ways to cool more efficiently, not trying to sove a problem per se. |
Re: Water Wetter
> Periodically desalt/descale the
> engine/radiator with boiler descaler products such as Marsolve® or > Rydlyme® (not muriatic or other inorganic acid). How do you do this? Just put it in there, circulate, and then flush the radiator? Or something more involved? I flush the radiator from time to time, but have never heard of descaling before. This would probably be a good practice to start implementing if I can figure out how to do it. Also, I didn't realize there was a different recommended water/antifreeze mix for aluminum vs. copper radiators. Out of curiosity, what ratio is typical for aluminum? And FYI, I don't really have a problem with overheating, but I do run about 210 and some of the responders in the other thread said that was something to be nervous about, so I'm just thinking about overall ways to cool more efficiently, not trying to sove a problem per se. |
Re: Water Wetter
Approximately 9/12/03 06:54, Red Racer uttered for posterity:
> Joshua, > > In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would > still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is > not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what > you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in > perfect working order, and is properly sized. Plus you can buy even better stuff from Edmund Scientific for a teeny fraction of the price. Main use is in commercial water systems where it can cut the cost of pumping considerably. Can also increase the range of fire hoses, sometimes used in tanker trucks. > Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. As long as you drain it after every run and don't leave it in the engine, and never run the engine for very long. Water, at engine temperatures, is quite corrosive to pretty much all of the metals used in engines. Steam is even worse. There are mineral based corrosion inhibitors available that not only raise the boiling temperature, but have no negative effect on heat transfer...and are used as mineral based antifreeze. |
Re: Water Wetter
Approximately 9/12/03 06:54, Red Racer uttered for posterity:
> Joshua, > > In a properly sized cooling system, the use of Red Line "Water Wetter" would > still be a benefit, but not one that is absolutley needed. This product is > not intended to fix a broken cooling system, but instead to maximize what > you have. The first thing one needs to do is make sure that everything is in > perfect working order, and is properly sized. Plus you can buy even better stuff from Edmund Scientific for a teeny fraction of the price. Main use is in commercial water systems where it can cut the cost of pumping considerably. Can also increase the range of fire hoses, sometimes used in tanker trucks. > Running 100% water is simply the best thing you can do for maximun cooling. As long as you drain it after every run and don't leave it in the engine, and never run the engine for very long. Water, at engine temperatures, is quite corrosive to pretty much all of the metals used in engines. Steam is even worse. There are mineral based corrosion inhibitors available that not only raise the boiling temperature, but have no negative effect on heat transfer...and are used as mineral based antifreeze. |
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