montanajeeper@aol.com (MontanaJeeper) wrote in message news:<c1e32590.0409032047.47a6d58e@posting.google. com>...
> larboard34@hotmail.com (Ted Azito) wrote in message news:<b53da461.0409021909.1a6e6839@posting.google. com>...
> > Here's why Bill is ----ed between the ears:
>
> ya know....because of the manner in which you have presented your
> argument you lost before i got past your subject header.


Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
So what was I to do?

 

montanajeeper@aol.com (MontanaJeeper) wrote in message news:<c1e32590.0409032047.47a6d58e@posting.google. com>...
> larboard34@hotmail.com (Ted Azito) wrote in message news:<b53da461.0409021909.1a6e6839@posting.google. com>...
> > Here's why Bill is ----ed between the ears:
>
> ya know....because of the manner in which you have presented your
> argument you lost before i got past your subject header.


Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
So what was I to do?

 

Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
your life.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
> So what was I to do?

 

Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
your life.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
> So what was I to do?

 

Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
your life.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
> So what was I to do?

 

L.W. ("ßill") ------ III did pass the time by typing:
> Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
> that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
> freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
> Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
> your life.

Ted never ran an old propane/diesel tractor in cool and humid weather.
They ice up and stick without a heat riser or hot air intake and can
literally run away till things warm up.

Propane similar to NO is stored as a liquid under pressure. NO is stored
at a much higher pressure than propane. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2 i.e. the
greater the pressure drop the greater the temperature drop. Part of the
boost caused by NO is due to the cooling effect and resulting increased
density of the air/fuel charge. For almost all NO installations the injection
is under the TB or carb. For a propane retrofit it is always before the
TB or carb. That's the issue. Given the right conditions a propane vehicle
will cool the intake air enough to cause ice to form on the butterfly.

> Ted Azito wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
>> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
>> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
>> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
>> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
>> So what was I to do?

 

L.W. ("ßill") ------ III did pass the time by typing:
> Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
> that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
> freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
> Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
> your life.

Ted never ran an old propane/diesel tractor in cool and humid weather.
They ice up and stick without a heat riser or hot air intake and can
literally run away till things warm up.

Propane similar to NO is stored as a liquid under pressure. NO is stored
at a much higher pressure than propane. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2 i.e. the
greater the pressure drop the greater the temperature drop. Part of the
boost caused by NO is due to the cooling effect and resulting increased
density of the air/fuel charge. For almost all NO installations the injection
is under the TB or carb. For a propane retrofit it is always before the
TB or carb. That's the issue. Given the right conditions a propane vehicle
will cool the intake air enough to cause ice to form on the butterfly.

> Ted Azito wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
>> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
>> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
>> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
>> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
>> So what was I to do?

 

L.W. ("ßill") ------ III did pass the time by typing:
> Basic high school chemistry would tell the most ignorant student
> that released pressure will cool, gas because it expands more will
> freeze quicker, and that has nothing to do with atmospheric temperature.
> Go back to school little girlie boy, you don't' want to be stupid all
> your life.

Ted never ran an old propane/diesel tractor in cool and humid weather.
They ice up and stick without a heat riser or hot air intake and can
literally run away till things warm up.

Propane similar to NO is stored as a liquid under pressure. NO is stored
at a much higher pressure than propane. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2 i.e. the
greater the pressure drop the greater the temperature drop. Part of the
boost caused by NO is due to the cooling effect and resulting increased
density of the air/fuel charge. For almost all NO installations the injection
is under the TB or carb. For a propane retrofit it is always before the
TB or carb. That's the issue. Given the right conditions a propane vehicle
will cool the intake air enough to cause ice to form on the butterfly.

> Ted Azito wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I hate to be ignorant like that, but it was obvious reason,
>> common sense and a polite appeal to reality were getting nowhere, and
>> fast. He was posting total nonsense. No propane installation ever
>> froze up at WOT. It, as far as I can determine, never happened, and
>> really couldn't. Then he comes up with this stuff about Nitrous Oxide.
>> So what was I to do?

 

Propane vehicles feed the Propane under pressure to a vaporizer, which
uses engine coolant to heat the propane. If it's going to freeze up
anywhere, it's going to be here-where propane takes the heat of
vaporization.

Frozen throttle bodies just haven't been a problem with propane
installations. Frozen coolant passages in vaporizers, evidently yes.
Carb fires in dual fuel installations, definitely. But no one in the
LP vehicle industry I have been able to find has ever heard of frozen
throttles.

Propane in short has problems-problems that can be solved, just like
gasoline has. Gasoline is not necessarily the best fuel, it's just the
one that's been the most available. If alcohols, kerosenes, heavy fuel
oils, or condensable gases were available much cheaper, and the
government didn't get in the way, we'd find ways to burn them and be
happy. Indeed, people have.

(I'm not sure what you mean by a propane-diesel tractor. Compression
ignition engines cannot burn propane as a primary fuel,because diesel
injection systems aren't capable of handling what is essentially a
cryofuel and because propane is a very low cetane fuel. (Low
cetane~=high octane). Either it's used as a fumigant auxilliary fuel
for power augmentation and smoke abatement (which works well if not
overdone) or you drop the compression, put in a spark plug, and fit a
throttled propane mixer and run it as a spark ignition engine.)

But then you get these fat pompous channelmasters who think they know
everything and they just like to badmouth anything that isn't the
status quo. I think it's because they are really afraid if they had to
go back and work out anything from first principles they'd be shown up
for what they are.

 

Propane vehicles feed the Propane under pressure to a vaporizer, which
uses engine coolant to heat the propane. If it's going to freeze up
anywhere, it's going to be here-where propane takes the heat of
vaporization.

Frozen throttle bodies just haven't been a problem with propane
installations. Frozen coolant passages in vaporizers, evidently yes.
Carb fires in dual fuel installations, definitely. But no one in the
LP vehicle industry I have been able to find has ever heard of frozen
throttles.

Propane in short has problems-problems that can be solved, just like
gasoline has. Gasoline is not necessarily the best fuel, it's just the
one that's been the most available. If alcohols, kerosenes, heavy fuel
oils, or condensable gases were available much cheaper, and the
government didn't get in the way, we'd find ways to burn them and be
happy. Indeed, people have.

(I'm not sure what you mean by a propane-diesel tractor. Compression
ignition engines cannot burn propane as a primary fuel,because diesel
injection systems aren't capable of handling what is essentially a
cryofuel and because propane is a very low cetane fuel. (Low
cetane~=high octane). Either it's used as a fumigant auxilliary fuel
for power augmentation and smoke abatement (which works well if not
overdone) or you drop the compression, put in a spark plug, and fit a
throttled propane mixer and run it as a spark ignition engine.)

But then you get these fat pompous channelmasters who think they know
everything and they just like to badmouth anything that isn't the
status quo. I think it's because they are really afraid if they had to
go back and work out anything from first principles they'd be shown up
for what they are.