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Re: Passed Smog today-- Yeaaaaa!!

Hey Bushahaulic,

Thanks for the thoughts and additional test suggestions.

My theory regarding the oil on the threads follows the physics of a liquid
flowing upward into a crevasse or area such as a plug. If you have a
threaded item with a small clearance between the threads (Chris wrote
"Remember, the threads don't seal the plug to the head, the washer/seat on
the plug does that. There is a small clearance between the threads in the
head and the threads on the plug by design") then a liquid will be drawn up
into this area.

I haven't taken physics but I have seen the action of a liquid being drawn
upward within a small gap or space. You could try to put to vertical sided
glasses together. Place them close together and put some water on the table
at the gap. The water will draw upward a certain distance within this gap.

I found this which is as close to my thoughts as I had time to look:

"Capillary action is the result of adhesion and surface tension. Adhesion of
water to the walls of a vessel will cause an upward force on the liquid at
the edges and result in a meniscus which turns upward."

They are talking about a tube and water in this case but the same principle
applies.

My thoughts are the fluid (oil in this case) is flowing down from somewhere
(worn valve guide, crack in the guide, don't know) and as it passes the plug
(which by the way are cold plugs - short nosed, suggested by Hesco for the
MPI Kit) it is drawn up into the plug cavity through this action.

Regarding the seals. I double checked them and found, if anything, they
were too snug. These seals ride on the valve stem and as I understand it do
not remain down by the head but "float" to various positions based on the
action of the valve stem. I could, to be extra thorough, buy another set
and replace the ones on #2 just to be sure. A new pack is only 10 or 11
dollars.

Regarding your test suggestions, I agree. I will perform both a cold and
hot Compression and Leak Down tests this Saturday on all cylinders and
record the results. However, if it's any indicator, the motor starts the
same either cold or hot. Starts within three to four revolutions very
consistently. Mostly three.

You wrote:

> As you know, the oil has to come from somewhere. It should
> make no real difference if the valve is open or closed when
> engine is off - as soon as the engine starts, that oil that
> is puddled on the valve is gonna get into the combustion
> chamber. Oil that is fouling plugs isn't getting there when
> engine is off.

Following my theory, the oil cannot pass down into the cylinder if the
valves are closed. It will only accumulate a certain amount in the guide
and be stopped by the closed valve. If the valve is open then the oil can
flow continuously to allow all oil sitting on the valve and guide to flow
into the cylinder.

Now, after all this is said I'm not disagreeing with Chris. In fact, I
would it rather be the case if the carbon could be "blown" out. Contrary to
popular belief, I would rather not tear this engine apart either for the
head or the rings. I'd rather drive it as Mike said. However, I don't want
to ignore the problem either.

Also, following Chris's scenario, how would the oil get into the plug hole
after the engine is shut off. I can think that the oil is getting past the
oil ring into the cylinder and pressed up onto the head and after shut down
it flows by the spark plug hole again being drawn up into the hole. The
only thing that bothers me about that is it would be more consistent. I
would be able to recreate it far more consistently than with the "down from
the valve guide" theory and I would see the effect more than I have.

Whew, that was a bunch.

Volley back at'cha :-)

Bill

"Busahaulic" <pearson.d@worldnetobvious.att.net> wrote in message
news:F7XYb.17388$aH3.566284@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Bill, I don't quite follow the "oil on the threads" - If the
> sparkplug is a normal plug with a straight threaded portion
> and a squared-off sealing "step" with a crush-washer to
> seal, then the only way oil could get on the threads is if
> the seal isn't sealed! That area below the seal isn't gonna
> get oil from below if there is no way for it to "flow"
> meaning a dead-end with seal working properly has now way to
> allow oil to flow up there. (Unless the engine is upside
> down and gravity gets it there when engine is off)
> Next item: IF the plugs you are using are not the correct
> plugs for the engine, especially if longer than stock, the
> threads at the end will protrude into the combustion
> chamber. Usually if this is the case, they are tough to get
> out once carbon deposits accumulate on them, but you are
> getting wet plugs and changing often, so that isn't a
> problem. Are they the correct plugs for that engine and how
> are you certain of that? (I don't need to know, BTW!)
>
> Did you ever do a compression test hot and a compression
> test cold and compare that? (When you are going to do a hot
> test, slightly loosen the plugs before warming the engine up
> (slightly loosen) so you don't run risk of tearing threads
> when removing hot. I want to know about the hot test vs
> cold because you had excellent compression cold. I want to
> know what that #2 does hot. I have had engines that started
> well cold and ran okay, ran better at higher speeds than
> lower speeds... Hell to start once hot, however. Compression
> was "normal" cold but almost non-existant hot, due to loose
> valve seat or crack in head or munched valve guide.
>
> As you know, the oil has to come from somewhere. It should
> make no real difference if the valve is open or closed when
> engine is off - as soon as the engine starts, that oil that
> is puddled on the valve is gonna get into the combustion
> chamber. Oil that is fouling plugs isn't getting there when
> engine is off.
>
> If #2 was the first cyl you put the new valve seals on and
> you had probs with that one (as compared to the others) is
> it possible that one of #2's new seals is not sealing? You
> said there wasn't much play in the guides on #2 (most on #1,
> right?) Or was there? What color are the valve stems? If a
> stem is significantly worn, the seal won't seal on it.
>
> Just some random thoughts. Used to be a lot easier to
> diagnose with flathead engines! Smoke on a pull: bad rings;
> smoke downhill on compression (or taking off after long
> downhill): bad valve guides. Less apparent on ohv engines
> but same general idea.
>
> William Oliveri <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:c10q89$1cvbh3$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Thank you for your reply Chris.
> >
> > Let me ask this. This (oil on the plug threads up to the
> base) is
> > inconsistent at best. That is, I have not been able to
> recreate the
> > scenario at will. The times this has happened is as
> follows:
> >
> > 1. Previous evening changed plugs. Next day drove about
> 10 miles with a
> > couple stops in between. On final stop took plug out to
> have a look.
> > Looked to be not bad. Replaced plug and went for a walk
> around flea marked
> > for about an hour to hour and a half. Looked at plug
> again and found the
> > oil on the threads situation.
> >
> > 2. Yesterday after smog test same effect only I didn't do
> the before/after,
> > only the after. Found oil on the threads up to the plug
> washer.
> >
> >
> > If it was the oil ring as the source, wouldn't it be
> consistent or at least
> > more consistent with oil on the threads?
> >
> >
> > My thoughts were that a single valve on this cylinder is
> causing the
> > problem. There is what, less than 25% chance that valve
> is open at shut
> > down (maybe even less)? Could it be this is the time when
> the oil is
> > leaking down from the valve guide into the cylinder at
> shut of but only when
> > that valve for that cylinder is open. Does this make
> sense?
> >
> > The reasons I'm led in this direction is:
> >
> > 1. This happened after the engine was shut down and after
> the plug had been
> > pulled and replaced.
> > 2. This effect is inconsistent.
> >
> > Thanks for any agreements or contradictions to my theory
> to help me better
> > understand.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> > news:BDQYb.22558$fW.20989@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > I've been thinking about this a bit and there is another
> thing I might
> > > mention. You are getting oil on the plug for that
> cylinder, and it is
> > > getting up into the threads. Remember, the threads don't
> seal the plug to
> > > the head, the washer/seat on the plug does that. There
> is a small
> > clearance
> > > between the threads in the head and the threads on the
> plug by design.
> > With
> > > all the turbulence, pressure, heat, etc. in the
> combustion chamber, some
> > oil
> > > is going to work its way up the threads and stop at the
> sealing surface.
> > > This is what is causing your plug threads to get oiled
> down. I still say
> > you
> > > should drive it for a while and see if it clears up.
> More and more I
> > believe
> > > this is a stuck oil ring on that piston and it may clear
> up with time.
> > > Unfortunately, I don't like or trust oil and gas
> additives for cleaning
> > out
> > > engine deposits, so I don't know if anything like that
> would clear up a
> > > stuck ring. Just keep the engine in tune, change the oil
> regularly or
> > maybe
> > > even a bit more frequent than usual for a few changes.
> Try and take the
> > Jeep
> > > on a few longer runs at highway speeds when you can.
> This may help free
> > > things up and clear out the crud. This is all assuming
> that is the problem
> > > of course.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > news:c107qg$1bvkns$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > :-).
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, it's funny. I replaced four of the six plugs
> with new before I
> > went
> > > > to have it smogged (I thought I had six with me but
> had only four)
> > > replacing
> > > > #2 of course and when I drove it it missed, felt worse
> than before I did
> > > the
> > > > replacement. By the time I got through with the smog
> (2nd station,
> > drove
> > > > about 10 - 15 miles) it started to even out and run
> smoother (computer
> > > > adjusting?). I parked it at work and later went back
> out to see what
> > the
> > > > plug looked like and there was oil all over the
> threads of the plug up
> > to
> > > > the base of the thread. When I took the old plug (#2)
> out when I was
> > > > changing for new and looked at it it didn't look as
> bad as before so at
> > > that
> > > > time I'm thinking maybe Chris is right. There was
> some carbon on the
> > oil
> > > > ring and it's starting to blow itself out. When I
> pulled the new plug
> > my
> > > > hopes were dashed at that theory. Go figure.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:40337E44.1234F2C9@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > Man, you actually gave out the guys name that you
> paid off to pass
> > > > > emissions???
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow...
> > > > > ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean, no way an engine in as bad a shape as yours
> only firing on 5
> > > > > cylinders can pass emissions anywhere, even in lax
> areas, let alone in
> > > > > California....
> > > > > LOL!
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to
> tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Went to my first station and they took one look at
> my setup and told
> > > me
> > > > I
> > > > > > needed to see a referee. So I had to trapes all
> the way back to
> > work
> > > > and
> > > > > > call a local jeep shop (T&J Perfomance in Orange,
> Ca). They
> > directed
> > > me
> > > > to
> > > > > > a smog testing station who send me to a Test Only
> station which is
> > > what
> > > > I
> > > > > > needed. Finally, I got to a station that knew
> what a Mopar MPI kit
> > > was.
> > > > > > I'm sitting there waiting while the guy pushes on
> the gas going for
> > > the
> > > > 15
> > > > > > mph test and I saw a big puff of blue smoke as he
> started the test.
> > I
> > > > > > thought, I'm dead in the water. I'm gonna to
> fail. So he goes
> > > through
> > > > the
> > > > > > motions, tests at 25 and then the cap and then he
> comes and tells me
> > I
> > > > > > passed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The numbers weren't too bad but the tester (Moon)
> told me he had
> > seen
> > > > many
> > > > > > jeeps come through with MPI kits on the and they
> were much better
> > than
> > > > mine.
> > > > > > :-(.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But anyway, I got that out of the way for another
> 2 years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If anyone needs information about a testing
> station who knows what a
> > > MPI
> > > > kit
> > > > > > is and is in my area, here you go:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Toma Test Only
> > > > > > 822 W. Angus Ave, Unit C
> > > > > > Orange, Ca 92868
> > > > > > 714-771-6153
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Passed Smog today-- Yeaaaaa!!

Like the wick on a kerosene lantern, oops probably no one here has
used nor seen an old highway hazard lantern on a sawhorse.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

William Oliveri wrote:
>
> Thanks for the thoughts and additional test suggestions.
>
> My theory regarding the oil on the threads follows the physics of a liquid
> flowing upward into a crevasse or area such as a plug. If you have a
> threaded item with a small clearance between the threads (Chris wrote
> "Remember, the threads don't seal the plug to the head, the washer/seat on
> the plug does that. There is a small clearance between the threads in the
> head and the threads on the plug by design") then a liquid will be drawn up
> into this area.
>
> I haven't taken physics but I have seen the action of a liquid being drawn
> upward within a small gap or space. You could try to put to vertical sided
> glasses together. Place them close together and put some water on the table
> at the gap. The water will draw upward a certain distance within this gap.
>
> I found this which is as close to my thoughts as I had time to look:
>
> "Capillary action is the result of adhesion and surface tension. Adhesion of
> water to the walls of a vessel will cause an upward force on the liquid at
> the edges and result in a meniscus which turns upward."
>
> They are talking about a tube and water in this case but the same principle
> applies.
>
> My thoughts are the fluid (oil in this case) is flowing down from somewhere
> (worn valve guide, crack in the guide, don't know) and as it passes the plug
> (which by the way are cold plugs - short nosed, suggested by Hesco for the
> MPI Kit) it is drawn up into the plug cavity through this action.
>
> Regarding the seals. I double checked them and found, if anything, they
> were too snug. These seals ride on the valve stem and as I understand it do
> not remain down by the head but "float" to various positions based on the
> action of the valve stem. I could, to be extra thorough, buy another set
> and replace the ones on #2 just to be sure. A new pack is only 10 or 11
> dollars.
>
> Regarding your test suggestions, I agree. I will perform both a cold and
> hot Compression and Leak Down tests this Saturday on all cylinders and
> record the results. However, if it's any indicator, the motor starts the
> same either cold or hot. Starts within three to four revolutions very
> consistently. Mostly three.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > As you know, the oil has to come from somewhere. It should
> > make no real difference if the valve is open or closed when
> > engine is off - as soon as the engine starts, that oil that
> > is puddled on the valve is gonna get into the combustion
> > chamber. Oil that is fouling plugs isn't getting there when
> > engine is off.
>
> Following my theory, the oil cannot pass down into the cylinder if the
> valves are closed. It will only accumulate a certain amount in the guide
> and be stopped by the closed valve. If the valve is open then the oil can
> flow continuously to allow all oil sitting on the valve and guide to flow
> into the cylinder.
>
> Now, after all this is said I'm not disagreeing with Chris. In fact, I
> would it rather be the case if the carbon could be "blown" out. Contrary to
> popular belief, I would rather not tear this engine apart either for the
> head or the rings. I'd rather drive it as Mike said. However, I don't want
> to ignore the problem either.
>
> Also, following Chris's scenario, how would the oil get into the plug hole
> after the engine is shut off. I can think that the oil is getting past the
> oil ring into the cylinder and pressed up onto the head and after shut down
> it flows by the spark plug hole again being drawn up into the hole. The
> only thing that bothers me about that is it would be more consistent. I
> would be able to recreate it far more consistently than with the "down from
> the valve guide" theory and I would see the effect more than I have.
>
> Whew, that was a bunch.
>
> Volley back at'cha :-)
>
> Bill

Re: Passed Smog today-- Yeaaaaa!!

Hey Bill - I have an oil lamp right here beside my keyboard!
It's kinda nice instead of turning on the room lights!
The hazard lanterns - those round jobbies that looked like a
cannonball on fire? Haven't seen them for awhile, but I did
see some in use in a road construction area in the "sticks"
in Oregon sometime within the past ten years! One of the
mail order tool companies was selling repro's just recently,
too.

L.W. (ßill) ------ III <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:40346202.7EB6846E@cox.net...
> Like the wick on a kerosene lantern, oops probably no
one here has
> used nor seen an old highway hazard lantern on a sawhorse.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Re: Passed Smog today-- Yeaaaaa!!

Yeah- and those old round oil pots they used to set on the road before they
came out with Lectric Lites ®.

--
Skip

"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:40346202.7EB6846E@cox.net...
> Like the wick on a kerosene lantern, oops probably no one here has
> used nor seen an old highway hazard lantern on a sawhorse.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> William Oliveri wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the thoughts and additional test suggestions.
> >
> > My theory regarding the oil on the threads follows the physics of a
liquid
> > flowing upward into a crevasse or area such as a plug. If you have a
> > threaded item with a small clearance between the threads (Chris wrote
> > "Remember, the threads don't seal the plug to the head, the washer/seat
on
> > the plug does that. There is a small clearance between the threads in
the
> > head and the threads on the plug by design") then a liquid will be drawn
up
> > into this area.
> >
> > I haven't taken physics but I have seen the action of a liquid being
drawn
> > upward within a small gap or space. You could try to put to vertical
sided
> > glasses together. Place them close together and put some water on the
table
> > at the gap. The water will draw upward a certain distance within this
gap.
> >
> > I found this which is as close to my thoughts as I had time to look:
> >
> > "Capillary action is the result of adhesion and surface tension.
Adhesion of
> > water to the walls of a vessel will cause an upward force on the liquid
at
> > the edges and result in a meniscus which turns upward."
> >
> > They are talking about a tube and water in this case but the same
principle
> > applies.
> >
> > My thoughts are the fluid (oil in this case) is flowing down from
somewhere
> > (worn valve guide, crack in the guide, don't know) and as it passes the
plug
> > (which by the way are cold plugs - short nosed, suggested by Hesco for
the
> > MPI Kit) it is drawn up into the plug cavity through this action.
> >
> > Regarding the seals. I double checked them and found, if anything, they
> > were too snug. These seals ride on the valve stem and as I understand
it do
> > not remain down by the head but "float" to various positions based on
the
> > action of the valve stem. I could, to be extra thorough, buy another
set
> > and replace the ones on #2 just to be sure. A new pack is only 10 or 11
> > dollars.
> >
> > Regarding your test suggestions, I agree. I will perform both a cold
and
> > hot Compression and Leak Down tests this Saturday on all cylinders and
> > record the results. However, if it's any indicator, the motor starts
the
> > same either cold or hot. Starts within three to four revolutions very
> > consistently. Mostly three.
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > > As you know, the oil has to come from somewhere. It should
> > > make no real difference if the valve is open or closed when
> > > engine is off - as soon as the engine starts, that oil that
> > > is puddled on the valve is gonna get into the combustion
> > > chamber. Oil that is fouling plugs isn't getting there when
> > > engine is off.
> >
> > Following my theory, the oil cannot pass down into the cylinder if the
> > valves are closed. It will only accumulate a certain amount in the
guide
> > and be stopped by the closed valve. If the valve is open then the oil
can
> > flow continuously to allow all oil sitting on the valve and guide to
flow
> > into the cylinder.
> >
> > Now, after all this is said I'm not disagreeing with Chris. In fact, I
> > would it rather be the case if the carbon could be "blown" out.
Contrary to
> > popular belief, I would rather not tear this engine apart either for the
> > head or the rings. I'd rather drive it as Mike said. However, I don't
want
> > to ignore the problem either.
> >
> > Also, following Chris's scenario, how would the oil get into the plug
hole
> > after the engine is shut off. I can think that the oil is getting past
the
> > oil ring into the cylinder and pressed up onto the head and after shut
down
> > it flows by the spark plug hole again being drawn up into the hole. The
> > only thing that bothers me about that is it would be more consistent. I
> > would be able to recreate it far more consistently than with the "down
from
> > the valve guide" theory and I would see the effect more than I have.
> >
> > Whew, that was a bunch.
> >
> > Volley back at'cha :-)
> >
> > Bill

Re: Passed Smog today-- Yeaaaaa!!