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Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
> The Merg proclaimed:
Hey - I didn't 'proclaim' anything. I was only repeating what I had heard; or at least what I thought I heard. I've been known to be wrong on rare occasions. But that's corroborating evidence by two former military personnel against room and board deductions - good enough for me. Either way the enlisted men don't get paid nearly enough for the work they do. Lon wrote: > Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they > were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where > they were being paid per diem. That might have changed since I was in > the military. > > Yes, you got free room and board. In some bases, the military meals > were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their > ability to turn available stock into edible results. ..and there were > a few of the other type as well. As for the free housing, that was if > you lived in barracks and were single. If you were a platoon sergeant > or squad leader you typically got a private room. Otherwise you might > be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be > in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in > one big room. With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any > military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room. > > Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing > allowance and food allowance. If they ate in the mess hall they had to > pay. > > If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay. > > In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to > pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some > sort of detachment. > > Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not > free. > > The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different > skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of > funds. Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably > higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food. > Civilian jobs paid even more. > > > > The Merg proclaimed: > > > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty > > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club > > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and > > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually > > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they > > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out. > > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making > > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at > > Annapolis. > > > > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy. > > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be > > worth in the private sector. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
> The Merg proclaimed:
Hey - I didn't 'proclaim' anything. I was only repeating what I had heard; or at least what I thought I heard. I've been known to be wrong on rare occasions. But that's corroborating evidence by two former military personnel against room and board deductions - good enough for me. Either way the enlisted men don't get paid nearly enough for the work they do. Lon wrote: > Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they > were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where > they were being paid per diem. That might have changed since I was in > the military. > > Yes, you got free room and board. In some bases, the military meals > were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their > ability to turn available stock into edible results. ..and there were > a few of the other type as well. As for the free housing, that was if > you lived in barracks and were single. If you were a platoon sergeant > or squad leader you typically got a private room. Otherwise you might > be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be > in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in > one big room. With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any > military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room. > > Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing > allowance and food allowance. If they ate in the mess hall they had to > pay. > > If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay. > > In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to > pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some > sort of detachment. > > Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not > free. > > The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different > skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of > funds. Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably > higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food. > Civilian jobs paid even more. > > > > The Merg proclaimed: > > > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty > > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club > > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and > > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually > > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they > > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out. > > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making > > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at > > Annapolis. > > > > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy. > > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be > > worth in the private sector. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
> The Merg proclaimed:
Hey - I didn't 'proclaim' anything. I was only repeating what I had heard; or at least what I thought I heard. I've been known to be wrong on rare occasions. But that's corroborating evidence by two former military personnel against room and board deductions - good enough for me. Either way the enlisted men don't get paid nearly enough for the work they do. Lon wrote: > Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they > were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where > they were being paid per diem. That might have changed since I was in > the military. > > Yes, you got free room and board. In some bases, the military meals > were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their > ability to turn available stock into edible results. ..and there were > a few of the other type as well. As for the free housing, that was if > you lived in barracks and were single. If you were a platoon sergeant > or squad leader you typically got a private room. Otherwise you might > be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be > in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in > one big room. With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any > military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room. > > Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing > allowance and food allowance. If they ate in the mess hall they had to > pay. > > If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay. > > In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to > pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some > sort of detachment. > > Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not > free. > > The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different > skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of > funds. Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably > higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food. > Civilian jobs paid even more. > > > > The Merg proclaimed: > > > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty > > good deal, free room and board and etc. However, I played club > > lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and > > a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually > > get room and board taken out of their paychecks. So not only do they > > make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out. > > The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making > > pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at > > Annapolis. > > > > My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy. > > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be > > worth in the private sector. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:44:01 +0000, Dave Milne wrote:
> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your > military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly. > A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant (8 > years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504). > That really sucks. > > http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm > http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/ Interesting links, Dave. The effect you describe is, to a point, cyclic. I grew up as one of 4 kids of an Army then AF NCO. Things would get to the point he was working pretty much a full time off duty job to make ends meet then along came a pay raise and things got pretty good for a while. When I graduated from the AF Academy in 1964, a 2nd Lt. got a base pay of $222.30 per month and hadn't seen a pay raise since 1952. Hazardous duty (flight) pay was nearly half of the base pay amount. I got quarters in lieu of a housing allowance. When we finally got a pay raise in 1967, my pay almost exactly doubled and some of the younger enlisted troops on the flight line more than doubled their take-home pay. When Dad retired at the highest enlisted grade available, he had 30 years service and drew 75% of his active duty pay. That was more than I was making as a senior Captain on flight status. One of his proudest moments was the day when he reached more time retired than he had served on active duty and I know for a fact that his and Mom's medical care exceeded his pay. I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and Aussie contemporaries at one time. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:44:01 +0000, Dave Milne wrote:
> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your > military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly. > A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant (8 > years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504). > That really sucks. > > http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm > http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/ Interesting links, Dave. The effect you describe is, to a point, cyclic. I grew up as one of 4 kids of an Army then AF NCO. Things would get to the point he was working pretty much a full time off duty job to make ends meet then along came a pay raise and things got pretty good for a while. When I graduated from the AF Academy in 1964, a 2nd Lt. got a base pay of $222.30 per month and hadn't seen a pay raise since 1952. Hazardous duty (flight) pay was nearly half of the base pay amount. I got quarters in lieu of a housing allowance. When we finally got a pay raise in 1967, my pay almost exactly doubled and some of the younger enlisted troops on the flight line more than doubled their take-home pay. When Dad retired at the highest enlisted grade available, he had 30 years service and drew 75% of his active duty pay. That was more than I was making as a senior Captain on flight status. One of his proudest moments was the day when he reached more time retired than he had served on active duty and I know for a fact that his and Mom's medical care exceeded his pay. I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and Aussie contemporaries at one time. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:44:01 +0000, Dave Milne wrote:
> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your > military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly. > A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant (8 > years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504). > That really sucks. > > http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm > http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/ Interesting links, Dave. The effect you describe is, to a point, cyclic. I grew up as one of 4 kids of an Army then AF NCO. Things would get to the point he was working pretty much a full time off duty job to make ends meet then along came a pay raise and things got pretty good for a while. When I graduated from the AF Academy in 1964, a 2nd Lt. got a base pay of $222.30 per month and hadn't seen a pay raise since 1952. Hazardous duty (flight) pay was nearly half of the base pay amount. I got quarters in lieu of a housing allowance. When we finally got a pay raise in 1967, my pay almost exactly doubled and some of the younger enlisted troops on the flight line more than doubled their take-home pay. When Dad retired at the highest enlisted grade available, he had 30 years service and drew 75% of his active duty pay. That was more than I was making as a senior Captain on flight status. One of his proudest moments was the day when he reached more time retired than he had served on active duty and I know for a fact that his and Mom's medical care exceeded his pay. I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and Aussie contemporaries at one time. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets
worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior manager ! Dave "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets
worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior manager ! Dave "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets
worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior manager ! Dave "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for
World War 2 finally this month. Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck a dead soldier. Dave "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > manager ! > > Dave > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for
World War 2 finally this month. Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck a dead soldier. Dave "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > manager ! > > Dave > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for
World War 2 finally this month. Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck a dead soldier. Dave "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > manager ! > > Dave > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. When > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one!
Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > World War 2 finally this month. > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck > a dead soldier. > > Dave > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > up > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > manager ! > > > > Dave > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > well > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > When > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > the > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one!
Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > World War 2 finally this month. > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck > a dead soldier. > > Dave > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > up > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > manager ! > > > > Dave > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > well > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > When > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > the > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one!
Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > World War 2 finally this month. > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck > a dead soldier. > > Dave > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > up > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > manager ! > > > > Dave > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > well > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > When > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > the > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? Dave Milne "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > > World War 2 finally this month. > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > buck > > a dead soldier. > > > > Dave > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > assets > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > > up > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > > well > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > When > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > some > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > > the > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? Dave Milne "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > > World War 2 finally this month. > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > buck > > a dead soldier. > > > > Dave > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > assets > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > > up > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > > well > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > When > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > some > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > > the > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? Dave Milne "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for > > World War 2 finally this month. > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > buck > > a dead soldier. > > > > Dave > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > assets > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call > > up > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned > > well > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > When > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > some > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider > > the > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
"Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands
to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting in more damage in the end. Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > > buck > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > assets > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call > > > up > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > > manager ! > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned > > > well > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > > When > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > some > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider > > > the > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
"Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands
to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting in more damage in the end. Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > > buck > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > assets > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call > > > up > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > > manager ! > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned > > > well > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > > When > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > some > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider > > > the > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
"Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands
to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting in more damage in the end. Earle "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message news:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a > > buck > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > assets > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call > > > up > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior > > > > manager ! > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned > > > well > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. > > > When > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > some > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider > > > the > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Okay, so it has -----all to do with jeeps. Still... I think that you may be asking too broad a question. Without having thought too deeply about it and considered all the possibilities, it seems to me that the difference you are looking at is the difference between formal war between governments -- Clausewitz's war as an extension of politics -- and informal guerilla war as a extension of philosophy. In a formal war you have a physical goal: Defeat the enemy in battle, disarm him, displace the government, occupy and control the territory. At the government level the reason for the war is generally wealth of some sort (territory, resources, prestige, &c.) In a guerilla war there is no such physical goal: There are no pitched battles to win, no large weapons to confiscate, there is no recognizable governing body to displace, you often already occupy the territory but lack the means to effectively control it. It is a deadly game of Whack-A-Mole. At the top level the reason for the war is that they hate you. The strategic bombing program in Germany was certainly a disruption and forced the government to divert scant resources away from the battlefield. The "dehousing" program (as the British so quaintly termed it) no doubt was demoralizing, but the industrial bombing program never achieved its strategic goal. At the end of the war, Germany's industrial warfare output was higher than at the start -- what it lacked was the trained manpower to operate its weapons (once it was denied oil fields it lost the fuel to train pilots.) Strategic bombing of Japan didn't begin until late in 1944, when Japan was already on the ropes, having lost much of the Pacific island territory it had gained. Japan had planned on a "short war" to satisfy its territorial ambitions and never fully mobilized its economy on a war footing. Having incorrectly assumed that the US wouldn't engage them, they were unprepared for what became, for them, a war of attrition. Because of the structure of their military they were unable to replace pilots, because they were denied raw materials they were unable to effectively replace planes and carriers. And then there was Vietnam. Bombing programs there had tactical effects, but never really a strategic effect and didn't result in a favorable (to western eyes) outcome, in spite of bombing the hell out of them. An USAF navigator that I knew used to point out that his B-52 payload was larger than the fully-laden takeoff-weight of the B-17 that he used to navigate. So why bomb civilians in a formal war? To demoralize them, get them to stop supporting their government. But to be effective you have to wait until the war is a couple of years old and beginning to stink, otherwise you'll just piss them off -- like the Germans did with the English. In a guerilla war, if you are the conventional force, you'll just piss the population off and get them to support the guerrillas. If you are the guerilla force, you bomb civilians and blame the other guy to get the same effect. If you are both guerilla forces you bomb civilians to terrorize the population and make them pliant. On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Dave Milne wrote: > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... >> Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! >> >> Earle >> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >>> and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >>> World War 2 finally this month. >>> Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >>> a dead soldier. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >>> news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >>>> I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >>>> worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >>> up >>>> an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, >>>> someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >>>> manager ! >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >>>>> I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >>> well >>>>> earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. >>> When >>>>> the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >>>>> catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >>> the >>>>> value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other >>>>> countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >>>>> Aussie contemporaries at one time. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with whips....r" R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Okay, so it has -----all to do with jeeps. Still... I think that you may be asking too broad a question. Without having thought too deeply about it and considered all the possibilities, it seems to me that the difference you are looking at is the difference between formal war between governments -- Clausewitz's war as an extension of politics -- and informal guerilla war as a extension of philosophy. In a formal war you have a physical goal: Defeat the enemy in battle, disarm him, displace the government, occupy and control the territory. At the government level the reason for the war is generally wealth of some sort (territory, resources, prestige, &c.) In a guerilla war there is no such physical goal: There are no pitched battles to win, no large weapons to confiscate, there is no recognizable governing body to displace, you often already occupy the territory but lack the means to effectively control it. It is a deadly game of Whack-A-Mole. At the top level the reason for the war is that they hate you. The strategic bombing program in Germany was certainly a disruption and forced the government to divert scant resources away from the battlefield. The "dehousing" program (as the British so quaintly termed it) no doubt was demoralizing, but the industrial bombing program never achieved its strategic goal. At the end of the war, Germany's industrial warfare output was higher than at the start -- what it lacked was the trained manpower to operate its weapons (once it was denied oil fields it lost the fuel to train pilots.) Strategic bombing of Japan didn't begin until late in 1944, when Japan was already on the ropes, having lost much of the Pacific island territory it had gained. Japan had planned on a "short war" to satisfy its territorial ambitions and never fully mobilized its economy on a war footing. Having incorrectly assumed that the US wouldn't engage them, they were unprepared for what became, for them, a war of attrition. Because of the structure of their military they were unable to replace pilots, because they were denied raw materials they were unable to effectively replace planes and carriers. And then there was Vietnam. Bombing programs there had tactical effects, but never really a strategic effect and didn't result in a favorable (to western eyes) outcome, in spite of bombing the hell out of them. An USAF navigator that I knew used to point out that his B-52 payload was larger than the fully-laden takeoff-weight of the B-17 that he used to navigate. So why bomb civilians in a formal war? To demoralize them, get them to stop supporting their government. But to be effective you have to wait until the war is a couple of years old and beginning to stink, otherwise you'll just piss them off -- like the Germans did with the English. In a guerilla war, if you are the conventional force, you'll just piss the population off and get them to support the guerrillas. If you are the guerilla force, you bomb civilians and blame the other guy to get the same effect. If you are both guerilla forces you bomb civilians to terrorize the population and make them pliant. On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Dave Milne wrote: > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... >> Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! >> >> Earle >> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >>> and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >>> World War 2 finally this month. >>> Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >>> a dead soldier. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >>> news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >>>> I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >>>> worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >>> up >>>> an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, >>>> someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >>>> manager ! >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >>>>> I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >>> well >>>>> earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. >>> When >>>>> the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >>>>> catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >>> the >>>>> value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other >>>>> countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >>>>> Aussie contemporaries at one time. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with whips....r" R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Okay, so it has -----all to do with jeeps. Still... I think that you may be asking too broad a question. Without having thought too deeply about it and considered all the possibilities, it seems to me that the difference you are looking at is the difference between formal war between governments -- Clausewitz's war as an extension of politics -- and informal guerilla war as a extension of philosophy. In a formal war you have a physical goal: Defeat the enemy in battle, disarm him, displace the government, occupy and control the territory. At the government level the reason for the war is generally wealth of some sort (territory, resources, prestige, &c.) In a guerilla war there is no such physical goal: There are no pitched battles to win, no large weapons to confiscate, there is no recognizable governing body to displace, you often already occupy the territory but lack the means to effectively control it. It is a deadly game of Whack-A-Mole. At the top level the reason for the war is that they hate you. The strategic bombing program in Germany was certainly a disruption and forced the government to divert scant resources away from the battlefield. The "dehousing" program (as the British so quaintly termed it) no doubt was demoralizing, but the industrial bombing program never achieved its strategic goal. At the end of the war, Germany's industrial warfare output was higher than at the start -- what it lacked was the trained manpower to operate its weapons (once it was denied oil fields it lost the fuel to train pilots.) Strategic bombing of Japan didn't begin until late in 1944, when Japan was already on the ropes, having lost much of the Pacific island territory it had gained. Japan had planned on a "short war" to satisfy its territorial ambitions and never fully mobilized its economy on a war footing. Having incorrectly assumed that the US wouldn't engage them, they were unprepared for what became, for them, a war of attrition. Because of the structure of their military they were unable to replace pilots, because they were denied raw materials they were unable to effectively replace planes and carriers. And then there was Vietnam. Bombing programs there had tactical effects, but never really a strategic effect and didn't result in a favorable (to western eyes) outcome, in spite of bombing the hell out of them. An USAF navigator that I knew used to point out that his B-52 payload was larger than the fully-laden takeoff-weight of the B-17 that he used to navigate. So why bomb civilians in a formal war? To demoralize them, get them to stop supporting their government. But to be effective you have to wait until the war is a couple of years old and beginning to stink, otherwise you'll just piss them off -- like the Germans did with the English. In a guerilla war, if you are the conventional force, you'll just piss the population off and get them to support the guerrillas. If you are the guerilla force, you bomb civilians and blame the other guy to get the same effect. If you are both guerilla forces you bomb civilians to terrorize the population and make them pliant. On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Dave Milne wrote: > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > Dave Milne > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.co m... >> Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! >> >> Earle >> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >>> and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >>> World War 2 finally this month. >>> Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >>> a dead soldier. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >>> news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >>>> I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >>>> worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >>> up >>>> an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas, >>>> someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >>>> manager ! >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >>>>> I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >>> well >>>>> earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that way. >>> When >>>>> the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >>>>> catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >>> the >>>>> value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in other >>>>> countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >>>>> Aussie contemporaries at one time. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with whips....r" R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Interesting point, Earle. I've always thought the American policy that
doesn't allow the assassination of heads of state to be a little absurd, essentially for the same reasons. Especially when other states (or fighting units, et. al.) don't necessarily extend the same courtesy. On Dec 29, 12:52 pm, "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote: > "Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands > to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve > whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing > match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want > to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of > engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting > in more damage in the end. > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in messagenews:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyon der.co.uk... > > > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > > Dave Milne > > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > >news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om... > > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > >news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > > for > > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about > a > > > buck > > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > Dave > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > >news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.c o.uk... > > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > > assets > > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > > call > > > > up > > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other > arenas, > > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a > senior > > > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <who...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > >news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net.. . > > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > > damned > > > > well > > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that > way. > > > > When > > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > > some > > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > > consider > > > > the > > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in > other > > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > > and > > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Interesting point, Earle. I've always thought the American policy that
doesn't allow the assassination of heads of state to be a little absurd, essentially for the same reasons. Especially when other states (or fighting units, et. al.) don't necessarily extend the same courtesy. On Dec 29, 12:52 pm, "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote: > "Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands > to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve > whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing > match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want > to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of > engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting > in more damage in the end. > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in messagenews:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyon der.co.uk... > > > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > > Dave Milne > > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > >news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om... > > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > >news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > > for > > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about > a > > > buck > > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > Dave > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > >news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.c o.uk... > > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > > assets > > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > > call > > > > up > > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other > arenas, > > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a > senior > > > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <who...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > >news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net.. . > > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > > damned > > > > well > > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that > way. > > > > When > > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > > some > > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > > consider > > > > the > > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in > other > > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > > and > > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Interesting point, Earle. I've always thought the American policy that
doesn't allow the assassination of heads of state to be a little absurd, essentially for the same reasons. Especially when other states (or fighting units, et. al.) don't necessarily extend the same courtesy. On Dec 29, 12:52 pm, "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote: > "Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war. It stands > to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve > whatever problems caused the war in the first place. It's like a boxing > match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists. If you want > to win, you go for the head. That's why I find the idea of rules of > engagement cynical in the extreme. It just prolongs the misery, resulting > in more damage in the end. > > Earle > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in messagenews:GSblh.22673$k74.1979@text.news.blueyon der.co.uk... > > > I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed > > the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not > > every guerilla/--------- war been a loss ? > > > Dave Milne > > > "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa> wrote in message > >news:45955120$0$3435$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om... > > > Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one! > > > > Earle > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > >news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... > > > > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > > for > > > > World War 2 finally this month. > > > > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about > a > > > buck > > > > a dead soldier. > > > > > Dave > > > > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > > > >news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.c o.uk... > > > > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of > > > assets > > > > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > > call > > > > up > > > > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other > arenas, > > > > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a > senior > > > > > manager ! > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Will Honea" <who...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > >news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net.. . > > > > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > > damned > > > > well > > > > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that > way. > > > > When > > > > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has > > > some > > > > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > > consider > > > > the > > > > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in > other > > > > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > > and > > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Le, I didn't mean to start a long OT thread here, but you oversimplify the
effects of air power in all your instances. Dad flew 52 missions in B-17's with the Eighth AF (25 as a Bombardier, 27 as a retrained pilot) so I got an ear full of commentary on this. In Europe, the major effect was not on the manufacturing sources but the tactical destruction of the transportation network. In the Pacific, the same held true except that the transport element was much more critical. The one strategic master stroke was an anemic strike by Dolittle on Tokyo. Small damage to ground targets, but it caused the Imperial Forces to hold a substantial force in place at home that could well have been decisive if deployed as originally planned. Most military analysis of the nuclear strikes conclude that they were far more effective as political events than strictly military. Don't get me started on Vietnam: any resemblance between our actions there and a military campaign were accidents - the politicians ran that show with little regard for military effectiveness. Dave, there is a reason why tactical airstrikes are normally managed by specially trained personnel. Even then, I can recall being asked to make dive bomb runs perpendicular to a 600 ft cliff or straffing runs into a blind canyon or hot napalm releases over the heads of friendly troops. It's amazing how many details go into dropping one little bomb <g>. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Le, I didn't mean to start a long OT thread here, but you oversimplify the
effects of air power in all your instances. Dad flew 52 missions in B-17's with the Eighth AF (25 as a Bombardier, 27 as a retrained pilot) so I got an ear full of commentary on this. In Europe, the major effect was not on the manufacturing sources but the tactical destruction of the transportation network. In the Pacific, the same held true except that the transport element was much more critical. The one strategic master stroke was an anemic strike by Dolittle on Tokyo. Small damage to ground targets, but it caused the Imperial Forces to hold a substantial force in place at home that could well have been decisive if deployed as originally planned. Most military analysis of the nuclear strikes conclude that they were far more effective as political events than strictly military. Don't get me started on Vietnam: any resemblance between our actions there and a military campaign were accidents - the politicians ran that show with little regard for military effectiveness. Dave, there is a reason why tactical airstrikes are normally managed by specially trained personnel. Even then, I can recall being asked to make dive bomb runs perpendicular to a 600 ft cliff or straffing runs into a blind canyon or hot napalm releases over the heads of friendly troops. It's amazing how many details go into dropping one little bomb <g>. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Le, I didn't mean to start a long OT thread here, but you oversimplify the
effects of air power in all your instances. Dad flew 52 missions in B-17's with the Eighth AF (25 as a Bombardier, 27 as a retrained pilot) so I got an ear full of commentary on this. In Europe, the major effect was not on the manufacturing sources but the tactical destruction of the transportation network. In the Pacific, the same held true except that the transport element was much more critical. The one strategic master stroke was an anemic strike by Dolittle on Tokyo. Small damage to ground targets, but it caused the Imperial Forces to hold a substantial force in place at home that could well have been decisive if deployed as originally planned. Most military analysis of the nuclear strikes conclude that they were far more effective as political events than strictly military. Don't get me started on Vietnam: any resemblance between our actions there and a military campaign were accidents - the politicians ran that show with little regard for military effectiveness. Dave, there is a reason why tactical airstrikes are normally managed by specially trained personnel. Even then, I can recall being asked to make dive bomb runs perpendicular to a 600 ft cliff or straffing runs into a blind canyon or hot napalm releases over the heads of friendly troops. It's amazing how many details go into dropping one little bomb <g>. -- Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
When will you start paying for WWI?
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >> > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >> > World War 2 finally this month. >> > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >> > a dead soldier. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >> > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >> > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >> > up >> > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other >> > > arenas, >> > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >> > > manager ! >> > > >> > > Dave >> > > >> > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >> > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >> > well >> > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that >> > > > way. >> > When >> > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >> > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >> > the >> > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in >> > > > other >> > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >> > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
When will you start paying for WWI?
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >> > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >> > World War 2 finally this month. >> > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >> > a dead soldier. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >> > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >> > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >> > up >> > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other >> > > arenas, >> > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >> > > manager ! >> > > >> > > Dave >> > > >> > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >> > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >> > well >> > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that >> > > > way. >> > When >> > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >> > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >> > the >> > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in >> > > > other >> > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >> > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
When will you start paying for WWI?
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> news:IR5lh.22560$k74.9193@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk... >> > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada > for >> > World War 2 finally this month. >> > Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a >> buck >> > a dead soldier. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message >> > news:5E5lh.22555$k74.12417@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >> > > I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of >> assets >> > > worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can > call >> > up >> > > an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other >> > > arenas, >> > > someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior >> > > manager ! >> > > >> > > Dave >> > > >> > > "Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > > news:4594c673$0$63458$815e3792@news.qwest.net... >> > > > I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they > damned >> > well >> > > > earned it. I separated before retirement but I still feel that >> > > > way. >> > When >> > > > the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has >> some >> > > > catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you > consider >> > the >> > > > value of the benefits after retirement. It must be similar in >> > > > other >> > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British > and >> > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>,
The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money for the uniforms they issue you. /herb |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>,
The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money for the uniforms they issue you. /herb |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>,
The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money for the uniforms they issue you. /herb |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Herb Leong proclaimed:
> In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>, > The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: > #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get > #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. > > I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money > for the uniforms they issue you. In the Army the initial set of uniforms was free. After that you got a monthly uniform allowance and were responsible for replacing any part of your uniform as required and keeping them serviceable. When you left the service, any piece of your uniform that was missing, altered beyond limits, etc. was deducted from your pay at prices from the quartermaster store. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Herb Leong proclaimed:
> In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>, > The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: > #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get > #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. > > I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money > for the uniforms they issue you. In the Army the initial set of uniforms was free. After that you got a monthly uniform allowance and were responsible for replacing any part of your uniform as required and keeping them serviceable. When you left the service, any piece of your uniform that was missing, altered beyond limits, etc. was deducted from your pay at prices from the quartermaster store. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
Herb Leong proclaimed:
> In article <1167355437.267307.47480@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.c om>, > The Merg <greg.mergner@gmail.com> wrote: > #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get > #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions. > > I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money > for the uniforms they issue you. In the Army the initial set of uniforms was free. After that you got a monthly uniform allowance and were responsible for replacing any part of your uniform as required and keeping them serviceable. When you left the service, any piece of your uniform that was missing, altered beyond limits, etc. was deducted from your pay at prices from the quartermaster store. |
Re: Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas
"billy ray" <billy_ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message news:88e28$459494a7$422afc51$16675@FUSE.NET... > Only one of the two main political parties regularly votes against pay > raises for the military. > You're drinking the Kool Aid again...the pay raises that the GOP likes are ridiculous: http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006...ary-brass.html > It is the same one that nominated a candidate who said only people too > stupid to get a job at McDonalds joined the military. What he said was stupid, but that's not what he said, run your fact checker. > > This group is also the one that tried to disallow all the ballots from > deployed soldiers in the pas couple elections. > Not in 92, when Clinton was helped by all the military personell who lost confidence in Bush Sr for not getting Saddam in '91 when they could have. > > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_removethisbit_milne.info> wrote in message > news:l0Wkh.22393$k74.22059@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk... >> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your >> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly. >> A British raw recruit gets USD 23770 (US E1 gets 15272) and a Sergeant >> (8 >> years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504). >> That really sucks. >> >> http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...enlbasepay.htm >> http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularAr...Leave/Soldier/ >> >> Dave Milne, Scotland >> >> >> "L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message >> news:4590CC0B.6D96A629@cox.net... >>> Twas the night before Christmas >>> He lived all alone >>> In a one bedroom house made of >>> Plaster and Stone >>> I had come down the Chimney >>> With presents to give. >>> And to see just who >>> In this home did live. >>> I looked all about >>> A strange sight I did see. >>> No tinsel, No presents, >>> Not even a tree. >>> No stocking by the mantle, >>> Just boots filled with sand. >>> On the wall hung pictures >>> Of far distant lands. >>> With medals and badges, >>> Awards of all kinds, >>> A sober thought >>> Came through my mind. >>> For this house was different, >>> It was dark and dreary, >>> I found the home of a soldier, >>> Once I could see clearly. >>> The soldier lay sleeping, >>> Silent, alone, >>> Curled up on the floor >>> In this one bedroom home. >>> The face was so gentle, >>> The room in such disorder, >>> Not how I pictured >>> A United States Soldier. >>> Was this the hero >>> Of whom I'd just read? >>> Curled up on a Poncho, >>> The floor for a bed? >>> I realized the families >>> That I saw this night, >>> Owed their lives to these soldiers >>> Who were willing to fight. >>> Soon round the world, >>> The children would play, >>> And grownup would celebrate >>> A bright Christmas Day. >>> They all enjoyed freedom >>> Each month of the year, >>> Because of the soldiers, >>> Like the one lying here. >>> I couldn't help wonder >>> How many lay alone, >>> On a cold Christmas Eve >>> In a land far from home. >>> The very thought >>> Brought a tear to my eye, >>> I dropped to my knees >>> And started to Cry. >>> The soldier awakened >>> And I heard a rough voice, >>> "Santa don't cry, >>> This life is my choice." >>> The solider rolled over >>> And drifted to sleep, >>> I couldn't control it, >>> I continued to weep. >>> I kept watch for hours, >>> So silent and still >>> And we both shivered >>> >From the cold nights chill. >>> I didn't want to leave >>> On that cold, dark, night, >>> This guardian of Honor >>> So willing to fight. >>> The solider rolled over, >>> With a voice soft and pure, >>> Whispered, "Carry on Santa, >>> It's Christmas Day, All is secure." >>> One look at my watch, >>> And I knew he was right. >>> "Merry Christmas my friend, >>> And to all a good night." >> >> > > |
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