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Re: Jet Power chips?
In message <KZKHb.30576$PK3.24616@okepread01>, "DougW" wrote:
>bllsht did pass the time by typing: >> A larger throttle body *may* help at WOT. For normal driving, the PCM will >> simply adapt to it the same way it adapts to vacuum leaks. It adds more fuel >> and you gain no performance. > >Actually it changes the whole power curve, not just the top end with >the net result being the engine can breathe easier at higher revs. >By itself you might be looking at 2-3HP gain, the benefit comes when >your moving more air like I do with the supercharger. By using a larger throttle body, you're just increasing the maximum amount of air that can get into the engine at WOT, so you may get more top end power. Less than WOT, and it's the same as opening the throttle a little more on a stock TB, or pulling off a big vacuum hose to allow more air in. Yeah, the RPM goes up, but has there been a hp gain? It may be "perceived" as more power because it takes less throttle action to let the same amount of air in. The same perception could be gained by changing accelerator linkage geometry. A supercharger is a different ball game, and would probably benefit from a larger TB. >Within limits anything that lowers intake and exhaust resistance improves >efficiency. I say "within limits" because resistance is necessary for the >engine to scavenge properly. Most modern engines use the O2 sensor to >set the mix, with the TPS acting as a sanity check and WOT signal. > >> "DougW" wrote: >> >>> BNB7 did pass the time by typing: >>>> I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does anyone >>>> have any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think >>>> they're worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money >>>> that would do the same thing? >>> >>> Save your money. >>> >>> Best first steps would be >>> 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. >>> 2) new exhaust headers >>> 3) bored over throttle body. >>> >>> You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. >>> If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you >>> want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 >>> it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not >>> that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook >>> the injectors. > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
In message <KZKHb.30576$PK3.24616@okepread01>, "DougW" wrote:
>bllsht did pass the time by typing: >> A larger throttle body *may* help at WOT. For normal driving, the PCM will >> simply adapt to it the same way it adapts to vacuum leaks. It adds more fuel >> and you gain no performance. > >Actually it changes the whole power curve, not just the top end with >the net result being the engine can breathe easier at higher revs. >By itself you might be looking at 2-3HP gain, the benefit comes when >your moving more air like I do with the supercharger. By using a larger throttle body, you're just increasing the maximum amount of air that can get into the engine at WOT, so you may get more top end power. Less than WOT, and it's the same as opening the throttle a little more on a stock TB, or pulling off a big vacuum hose to allow more air in. Yeah, the RPM goes up, but has there been a hp gain? It may be "perceived" as more power because it takes less throttle action to let the same amount of air in. The same perception could be gained by changing accelerator linkage geometry. A supercharger is a different ball game, and would probably benefit from a larger TB. >Within limits anything that lowers intake and exhaust resistance improves >efficiency. I say "within limits" because resistance is necessary for the >engine to scavenge properly. Most modern engines use the O2 sensor to >set the mix, with the TPS acting as a sanity check and WOT signal. > >> "DougW" wrote: >> >>> BNB7 did pass the time by typing: >>>> I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does anyone >>>> have any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think >>>> they're worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money >>>> that would do the same thing? >>> >>> Save your money. >>> >>> Best first steps would be >>> 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. >>> 2) new exhaust headers >>> 3) bored over throttle body. >>> >>> You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. >>> If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you >>> want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 >>> it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not >>> that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook >>> the injectors. > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
Eric,
How did you do your cold air intake? Why do you refer to letting "crud" in? I fabbed a "cowl snorkel" or "cold air induction" intake for my TJ SE. It made a significant improvement on the highway. I also installed a 4.0L TB and that helped, too. My "CAI" pipes the air from the cowl box into the stock air filter box. I get the colder air and take advantage of the higher pressure area under the windshield to effectively increase the max manifold pressure available. The stronger the headwind, the more power it adds. :-) It also gives me some additional protection against ingesting water during a deep crossing (like water half way up the hood). -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "Eric" <gymrat@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANMHb.1754$zf.1483@okepread05... > I'd throw in my two cents and agree with Doug on the TB issue. I put a > bored out 4.0L TB on my 2.5L and it SUCKED. Well, literally and > figuratively. I could only use a fraction of the throttle before it started > bogging down (i.e. running WAY lean). I sold it to a buddy with a 4.0L and > took his stock TB. Everything is better now. :-) > > I have the 2.5L and have done the following intake mods: > > 1. Cold air intake and TB spacer. > Results: TB spacer is probably a HUGE waste of money. I had not found > this forum yet, so I learned the hard way. I would say the intake made a > difference. I live on a hill and can do it in higher gears than I could > before putting it in. > 2. 4.0L TB swap > Results: Small change, but noticeable. Note that I went from the bored > out 4.0L TB (which at times was GREAT... only on heavy acceleration, really, > and only if I found the "sweet spot" on the throttle) to the stock 4.0L TB. > > Overall: I like the CAI and the 4.0L TB. I'd do it again. However, if I > had the 4.0L, I wouldn't have touched it. It has enough power and I > wouldn't want to let all of the other crud in through the intake. I will > eventually sell my TJ for a Rubi anyhow. > > I will be swapping out exhausts this summer as I seem to have already > developed a leak in my muffler (at 39k miles!). If my manifold has cracked > by then (as they tend to do, so I am told) I'll replace it too. > > Eric > 99 TJ SE > > "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message > news:wtIHb.30562$PK3.771@okepread01... > > BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > > > I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does > anyone have > > > any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > they're > > > worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money that > would > > > do the same thing? > > > > Save your money. > > > > Best first steps would be > > 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > > 2) new exhaust headers > > 3) bored over throttle body. > > > > You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > > If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > > want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > > it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > > that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > > the injectors. > > > > > > -- > > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond > > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks > > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors > > > > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
Eric,
How did you do your cold air intake? Why do you refer to letting "crud" in? I fabbed a "cowl snorkel" or "cold air induction" intake for my TJ SE. It made a significant improvement on the highway. I also installed a 4.0L TB and that helped, too. My "CAI" pipes the air from the cowl box into the stock air filter box. I get the colder air and take advantage of the higher pressure area under the windshield to effectively increase the max manifold pressure available. The stronger the headwind, the more power it adds. :-) It also gives me some additional protection against ingesting water during a deep crossing (like water half way up the hood). -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "Eric" <gymrat@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANMHb.1754$zf.1483@okepread05... > I'd throw in my two cents and agree with Doug on the TB issue. I put a > bored out 4.0L TB on my 2.5L and it SUCKED. Well, literally and > figuratively. I could only use a fraction of the throttle before it started > bogging down (i.e. running WAY lean). I sold it to a buddy with a 4.0L and > took his stock TB. Everything is better now. :-) > > I have the 2.5L and have done the following intake mods: > > 1. Cold air intake and TB spacer. > Results: TB spacer is probably a HUGE waste of money. I had not found > this forum yet, so I learned the hard way. I would say the intake made a > difference. I live on a hill and can do it in higher gears than I could > before putting it in. > 2. 4.0L TB swap > Results: Small change, but noticeable. Note that I went from the bored > out 4.0L TB (which at times was GREAT... only on heavy acceleration, really, > and only if I found the "sweet spot" on the throttle) to the stock 4.0L TB. > > Overall: I like the CAI and the 4.0L TB. I'd do it again. However, if I > had the 4.0L, I wouldn't have touched it. It has enough power and I > wouldn't want to let all of the other crud in through the intake. I will > eventually sell my TJ for a Rubi anyhow. > > I will be swapping out exhausts this summer as I seem to have already > developed a leak in my muffler (at 39k miles!). If my manifold has cracked > by then (as they tend to do, so I am told) I'll replace it too. > > Eric > 99 TJ SE > > "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message > news:wtIHb.30562$PK3.771@okepread01... > > BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > > > I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does > anyone have > > > any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > they're > > > worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money that > would > > > do the same thing? > > > > Save your money. > > > > Best first steps would be > > 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > > 2) new exhaust headers > > 3) bored over throttle body. > > > > You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > > If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > > want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > > it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > > that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > > the injectors. > > > > > > -- > > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond > > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks > > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors > > > > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
Eric,
How did you do your cold air intake? Why do you refer to letting "crud" in? I fabbed a "cowl snorkel" or "cold air induction" intake for my TJ SE. It made a significant improvement on the highway. I also installed a 4.0L TB and that helped, too. My "CAI" pipes the air from the cowl box into the stock air filter box. I get the colder air and take advantage of the higher pressure area under the windshield to effectively increase the max manifold pressure available. The stronger the headwind, the more power it adds. :-) It also gives me some additional protection against ingesting water during a deep crossing (like water half way up the hood). -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "Eric" <gymrat@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANMHb.1754$zf.1483@okepread05... > I'd throw in my two cents and agree with Doug on the TB issue. I put a > bored out 4.0L TB on my 2.5L and it SUCKED. Well, literally and > figuratively. I could only use a fraction of the throttle before it started > bogging down (i.e. running WAY lean). I sold it to a buddy with a 4.0L and > took his stock TB. Everything is better now. :-) > > I have the 2.5L and have done the following intake mods: > > 1. Cold air intake and TB spacer. > Results: TB spacer is probably a HUGE waste of money. I had not found > this forum yet, so I learned the hard way. I would say the intake made a > difference. I live on a hill and can do it in higher gears than I could > before putting it in. > 2. 4.0L TB swap > Results: Small change, but noticeable. Note that I went from the bored > out 4.0L TB (which at times was GREAT... only on heavy acceleration, really, > and only if I found the "sweet spot" on the throttle) to the stock 4.0L TB. > > Overall: I like the CAI and the 4.0L TB. I'd do it again. However, if I > had the 4.0L, I wouldn't have touched it. It has enough power and I > wouldn't want to let all of the other crud in through the intake. I will > eventually sell my TJ for a Rubi anyhow. > > I will be swapping out exhausts this summer as I seem to have already > developed a leak in my muffler (at 39k miles!). If my manifold has cracked > by then (as they tend to do, so I am told) I'll replace it too. > > Eric > 99 TJ SE > > "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message > news:wtIHb.30562$PK3.771@okepread01... > > BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > > > I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does > anyone have > > > any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > they're > > > worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money that > would > > > do the same thing? > > > > Save your money. > > > > Best first steps would be > > 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > > 2) new exhaust headers > > 3) bored over throttle body. > > > > You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > > If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > > want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > > it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > > that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > > the injectors. > > > > > > -- > > -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond > > HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks > > Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors > > > > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
With a 2.5L on the highway, you spend more time at WOT. It does help in
that situation. It effectively gives you another inch or two of pedal. Funny, though. I don't seem to have that problem with my Grand Waggy... ;-) -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message news:v7kvuvsm409ipm9nq6p975ntl30pku6miq@4ax.com... > In message <KZKHb.30576$PK3.24616@okepread01>, "DougW" wrote: > > >bllsht did pass the time by typing: > >> A larger throttle body *may* help at WOT. For normal driving, the PCM will > >> simply adapt to it the same way it adapts to vacuum leaks. It adds more fuel > >> and you gain no performance. > > > >Actually it changes the whole power curve, not just the top end with > >the net result being the engine can breathe easier at higher revs. > >By itself you might be looking at 2-3HP gain, the benefit comes when > >your moving more air like I do with the supercharger. > > By using a larger throttle body, you're just increasing the maximum amount of > air that can get into the engine at WOT, so you may get more top end power. > Less than WOT, and it's the same as opening the throttle a little more on a > stock TB, or pulling off a big vacuum hose to allow more air in. Yeah, the RPM > goes up, but has there been a hp gain? It may be "perceived" as more power > because it takes less throttle action to let the same amount of air in. The > same perception could be gained by changing accelerator linkage geometry. > > A supercharger is a different ball game, and would probably benefit from a > larger TB. > > >Within limits anything that lowers intake and exhaust resistance improves > >efficiency. I say "within limits" because resistance is necessary for the > >engine to scavenge properly. Most modern engines use the O2 sensor to > >set the mix, with the TPS acting as a sanity check and WOT signal. > > > >> "DougW" wrote: > >> > >>> BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > >>>> I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does anyone > >>>> have any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > >>>> they're worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money > >>>> that would do the same thing? > >>> > >>> Save your money. > >>> > >>> Best first steps would be > >>> 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > >>> 2) new exhaust headers > >>> 3) bored over throttle body. > >>> > >>> You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > >>> If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > >>> want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > >>> it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > >>> that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > >>> the injectors. > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
With a 2.5L on the highway, you spend more time at WOT. It does help in
that situation. It effectively gives you another inch or two of pedal. Funny, though. I don't seem to have that problem with my Grand Waggy... ;-) -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message news:v7kvuvsm409ipm9nq6p975ntl30pku6miq@4ax.com... > In message <KZKHb.30576$PK3.24616@okepread01>, "DougW" wrote: > > >bllsht did pass the time by typing: > >> A larger throttle body *may* help at WOT. For normal driving, the PCM will > >> simply adapt to it the same way it adapts to vacuum leaks. It adds more fuel > >> and you gain no performance. > > > >Actually it changes the whole power curve, not just the top end with > >the net result being the engine can breathe easier at higher revs. > >By itself you might be looking at 2-3HP gain, the benefit comes when > >your moving more air like I do with the supercharger. > > By using a larger throttle body, you're just increasing the maximum amount of > air that can get into the engine at WOT, so you may get more top end power. > Less than WOT, and it's the same as opening the throttle a little more on a > stock TB, or pulling off a big vacuum hose to allow more air in. Yeah, the RPM > goes up, but has there been a hp gain? It may be "perceived" as more power > because it takes less throttle action to let the same amount of air in. The > same perception could be gained by changing accelerator linkage geometry. > > A supercharger is a different ball game, and would probably benefit from a > larger TB. > > >Within limits anything that lowers intake and exhaust resistance improves > >efficiency. I say "within limits" because resistance is necessary for the > >engine to scavenge properly. Most modern engines use the O2 sensor to > >set the mix, with the TPS acting as a sanity check and WOT signal. > > > >> "DougW" wrote: > >> > >>> BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > >>>> I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does anyone > >>>> have any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > >>>> they're worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money > >>>> that would do the same thing? > >>> > >>> Save your money. > >>> > >>> Best first steps would be > >>> 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > >>> 2) new exhaust headers > >>> 3) bored over throttle body. > >>> > >>> You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > >>> If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > >>> want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > >>> it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > >>> that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > >>> the injectors. > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
With a 2.5L on the highway, you spend more time at WOT. It does help in
that situation. It effectively gives you another inch or two of pedal. Funny, though. I don't seem to have that problem with my Grand Waggy... ;-) -- Jim -- 98 TJ SE 90 SJ GW http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98 "You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard enough..." "4x4" in caps is "$X$" "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message news:v7kvuvsm409ipm9nq6p975ntl30pku6miq@4ax.com... > In message <KZKHb.30576$PK3.24616@okepread01>, "DougW" wrote: > > >bllsht did pass the time by typing: > >> A larger throttle body *may* help at WOT. For normal driving, the PCM will > >> simply adapt to it the same way it adapts to vacuum leaks. It adds more fuel > >> and you gain no performance. > > > >Actually it changes the whole power curve, not just the top end with > >the net result being the engine can breathe easier at higher revs. > >By itself you might be looking at 2-3HP gain, the benefit comes when > >your moving more air like I do with the supercharger. > > By using a larger throttle body, you're just increasing the maximum amount of > air that can get into the engine at WOT, so you may get more top end power. > Less than WOT, and it's the same as opening the throttle a little more on a > stock TB, or pulling off a big vacuum hose to allow more air in. Yeah, the RPM > goes up, but has there been a hp gain? It may be "perceived" as more power > because it takes less throttle action to let the same amount of air in. The > same perception could be gained by changing accelerator linkage geometry. > > A supercharger is a different ball game, and would probably benefit from a > larger TB. > > >Within limits anything that lowers intake and exhaust resistance improves > >efficiency. I say "within limits" because resistance is necessary for the > >engine to scavenge properly. Most modern engines use the O2 sensor to > >set the mix, with the TPS acting as a sanity check and WOT signal. > > > >> "DougW" wrote: > >> > >>> BNB7 did pass the time by typing: > >>>> I was thinking about putting one of these chips in my '95 XJ. Does anyone > >>>> have any experience with these chips. Do they actually work? Do you think > >>>> they're worth couple hundred bucks or what could I buy for the same money > >>>> that would do the same thing? > >>> > >>> Save your money. > >>> > >>> Best first steps would be > >>> 1) cat-back, gibson, borla, etc. > >>> 2) new exhaust headers > >>> 3) bored over throttle body. > >>> > >>> You don't give an engine size so be aware of this gotcha. > >>> If you have the 4 banger, the TB from a I6 is the largest you > >>> want to go. If you put a bored out TB for the I6 on your 4 > >>> it will run so lean the engine will melt. :) Well, maby not > >>> that lean, but it will run like crap cause you essentially overtook > >>> the injectors. > > > > > |
Re: Jet Power chips?
The part about performance mods like these that I've never understood
is, if they are such a good idea, and add such a noticeable improvement, why don't they come standard (or at least optional)? With the automotive competition out there, one would think the manufacturer would want to take advantage of these minor mods to reap the benefits. Dave http://mysite.verizon.net/res0p2es/david/index.htm On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:40:58 -0500, "TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote: >Eric, >How did you do your cold air intake? Why do you refer to letting "crud" in? >I fabbed a "cowl snorkel" or "cold air induction" intake for my TJ SE. It >made a significant improvement on the highway. I also installed a 4.0L TB >and that helped, too. >My "CAI" pipes the air from the cowl box into the stock air filter box. I >get the colder air and take advantage of the higher pressure area under the >windshield to effectively increase the max manifold pressure available. The >stronger the headwind, the more power it adds. :-) It also gives me some >additional protection against ingesting water during a deep crossing (like >water half way up the hood). > >-- >Jim |
Re: Jet Power chips?
The part about performance mods like these that I've never understood
is, if they are such a good idea, and add such a noticeable improvement, why don't they come standard (or at least optional)? With the automotive competition out there, one would think the manufacturer would want to take advantage of these minor mods to reap the benefits. Dave http://mysite.verizon.net/res0p2es/david/index.htm On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:40:58 -0500, "TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote: >Eric, >How did you do your cold air intake? Why do you refer to letting "crud" in? >I fabbed a "cowl snorkel" or "cold air induction" intake for my TJ SE. It >made a significant improvement on the highway. I also installed a 4.0L TB >and that helped, too. >My "CAI" pipes the air from the cowl box into the stock air filter box. I >get the colder air and take advantage of the higher pressure area under the >windshield to effectively increase the max manifold pressure available. The >stronger the headwind, the more power it adds. :-) It also gives me some >additional protection against ingesting water during a deep crossing (like >water half way up the hood). > >-- >Jim |
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