|
Dana 30 differences?
I am looking into installing an auto-locker (Powertrax No-slip or LockRight)
in the front D30 of my 2006 TJ. After some searching on a couple online stores, I see them listed as suitable for up to 2001 or 2003 models. Anybody knows if there is a difference between the front axles used in 2006 models and the earlier (before 2001 /2003) ones, that could prevent the locker from fitting properly? Thanks. Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 16:39:51 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I am looking into installing an auto-locker (Powertrax No-slip or LockRight) >in the front D30 of my 2006 TJ. >After some searching on a couple online stores, I see them listed as >suitable for up to 2001 or 2003 models. >Anybody knows if there is a difference between the front axles used in 2006 >models and the earlier (before 2001 /2003) ones, that could prevent the >locker from fitting properly? >Thanks. I cannot say with 100% certainty but it is likely because the spline count on axles has changed. If this is the case the only fox it to replace axles which adds to price. I would further as the these lockers are a poor choice for a front axle anyway. Few understand the implication of their use up there until they learn the hard way. These devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . The manufactures of these product play these design limitations and their impact down. I would suggest that you look for Elocker or a True Trax gear based LSD as they play really well up front. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 16:39:51 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I am looking into installing an auto-locker (Powertrax No-slip or LockRight) >in the front D30 of my 2006 TJ. >After some searching on a couple online stores, I see them listed as >suitable for up to 2001 or 2003 models. >Anybody knows if there is a difference between the front axles used in 2006 >models and the earlier (before 2001 /2003) ones, that could prevent the >locker from fitting properly? >Thanks. I cannot say with 100% certainty but it is likely because the spline count on axles has changed. If this is the case the only fox it to replace axles which adds to price. I would further as the these lockers are a poor choice for a front axle anyway. Few understand the implication of their use up there until they learn the hard way. These devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . The manufactures of these product play these design limitations and their impact down. I would suggest that you look for Elocker or a True Trax gear based LSD as they play really well up front. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 16:39:51 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I am looking into installing an auto-locker (Powertrax No-slip or LockRight) >in the front D30 of my 2006 TJ. >After some searching on a couple online stores, I see them listed as >suitable for up to 2001 or 2003 models. >Anybody knows if there is a difference between the front axles used in 2006 >models and the earlier (before 2001 /2003) ones, that could prevent the >locker from fitting properly? >Thanks. I cannot say with 100% certainty but it is likely because the spline count on axles has changed. If this is the case the only fox it to replace axles which adds to price. I would further as the these lockers are a poor choice for a front axle anyway. Few understand the implication of their use up there until they learn the hard way. These devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . The manufactures of these product play these design limitations and their impact down. I would suggest that you look for Elocker or a True Trax gear based LSD as they play really well up front. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 16:39:51 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I am looking into installing an auto-locker (Powertrax No-slip or LockRight) >in the front D30 of my 2006 TJ. >After some searching on a couple online stores, I see them listed as >suitable for up to 2001 or 2003 models. >Anybody knows if there is a difference between the front axles used in 2006 >models and the earlier (before 2001 /2003) ones, that could prevent the >locker from fitting properly? >Thanks. I cannot say with 100% certainty but it is likely because the spline count on axles has changed. If this is the case the only fox it to replace axles which adds to price. I would further as the these lockers are a poor choice for a front axle anyway. Few understand the implication of their use up there until they learn the hard way. These devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . The manufactures of these product play these design limitations and their impact down. I would suggest that you look for Elocker or a True Trax gear based LSD as they play really well up front. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
> .... These
> devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a > turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on > surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to > balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME > speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
> .... These
> devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a > turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on > surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to > balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME > speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
> .... These
> devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a > turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on > surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to > balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME > speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
> .... These
> devices have NO 2 wheel drive are differing speed as required in a > turn and can cause severe steering bind and guide ploblems at times on > surfaces with reasonably good traction. The have no spiders gear to > balance power in a turn and are either 2wd with both tires trun SAME > speed or 1wd with on wheel coasting . I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when >in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. > >They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when >in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. > >They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when >in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. > >They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case when >in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. > >They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get
power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the locker to keep it locked. In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the wheels want to differentiate. Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry pavement, even if you have open diffs. The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or gets traction suddenly after a spin. IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. ? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com... > On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" > <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>when >>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >> >>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). > > > No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, > two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on > different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a > turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering > both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is > one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or > 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque > steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less > understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant > velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist > in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations > across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 > complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel > drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline > and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 > percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set > force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft > too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances > steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a > selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making > tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate > a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, > never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not > turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get
power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the locker to keep it locked. In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the wheels want to differentiate. Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry pavement, even if you have open diffs. The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or gets traction suddenly after a spin. IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. ? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com... > On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" > <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>when >>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >> >>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). > > > No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, > two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on > different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a > turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering > both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is > one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or > 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque > steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less > understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant > velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist > in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations > across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 > complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel > drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline > and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 > percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set > force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft > too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances > steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a > selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making > tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate > a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, > never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not > turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get
power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the locker to keep it locked. In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the wheels want to differentiate. Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry pavement, even if you have open diffs. The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or gets traction suddenly after a spin. IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. ? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com... > On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" > <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>when >>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >> >>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). > > > No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, > two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on > different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a > turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering > both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is > one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or > 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque > steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less > understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant > velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist > in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations > across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 > complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel > drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline > and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 > percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set > force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft > too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances > steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a > selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making > tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate > a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, > never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not > turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Dana 30 differences?
I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get
power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the locker to keep it locked. In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the wheels want to differentiate. Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry pavement, even if you have open diffs. The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or gets traction suddenly after a spin. IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. Bill Spiliotopoulos, 2006 TJ. ? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com... > On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" > <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>when >>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >> >>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). > > > No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, > two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on > different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a > turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering > both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is > one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or > 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque > steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less > understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant > velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist > in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations > across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 > complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel > drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline > and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 > percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set > force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft > too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances > steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a > selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making > tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate > a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, > never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not > turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:12:04 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get >power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the >front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If >they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent >them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, >as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the >driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the >locker to keep it locked. > I under stand fine, how things work in theory and reality varies a lot with thise spoder gear replacements. If they were that "great" they would have been standard in 4x4 years ago. They are not even a factroy option either even today and that tells you something too. >In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and >rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & >right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the >wheels want to differentiate. In a rear axle it is not as seem because under power it will tend not to unlock and skid tirs in a turn. BTW, the onlock funtion "ratchets" and it is not like it simply just disconnects. > >Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear >driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs >front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it >is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry >pavement, even if you have open diffs. Yes and no. Yes you will get drivelein bind on hard surface in 4x4 (unless it is a true full time system which I have in a old Jepp truck I still own) When your "locker" replacements are used this bind get servere!! > >The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only >arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You >would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you >have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or >gets traction suddenly after a spin. You are not wheel versed here I can see. I have plowed snow for over 20 years and the best straight axle plow truck I had was a J20 jeep with quadratrac that did not require it to be locked 95% of the time plowing so thje center diff took front to rear bind in turns and mitagated most of the front axle torque in turn (whipping of steering wheel at sharp turn angles under high toque loads). The best plow truck I have had is my 2000 K3500 that O bought new and at first I was very concerned as to how the IFS would pan out plowing but it handles like a drive and turns sharp with no torque steer/wheel whip at all because of CV's. You still do get a little front to back bind on a hard surface but other than that is is really smooth. It spoils you. > >IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost >transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the >slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). You are dreaming here. They are not transparent, you only learn to "live" with and accept its quirks as SOP or "normal". BTW your lockers of this type can be a heart attack on ice!!! >And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the >money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. It would be okay in back but if on a limted budget you want it up front if you plan a "locker" of some type up there, not your poor mans cluster fart spidergear replacements that do not play well there at all. Go ahead and put one it there and you will find out the hard way that things are not as they seem in theory in this area. > > >Bill Spiliotopoulos, >2006 TJ. > > >? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? >news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" >> <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>>when >>>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >>> >>>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). >> >> >> No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, >> two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on >> different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a >> turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering >> both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is >> one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or >> 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque >> steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less >> understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant >> velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist >> in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations >> across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 >> complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel >> drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline >> and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 >> percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set >> force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft >> too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances >> steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a >> selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making >> tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate >> a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, >> never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not >> turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. >> ----------------- >> TheSnoMan.com > ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:12:04 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get >power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the >front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If >they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent >them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, >as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the >driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the >locker to keep it locked. > I under stand fine, how things work in theory and reality varies a lot with thise spoder gear replacements. If they were that "great" they would have been standard in 4x4 years ago. They are not even a factroy option either even today and that tells you something too. >In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and >rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & >right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the >wheels want to differentiate. In a rear axle it is not as seem because under power it will tend not to unlock and skid tirs in a turn. BTW, the onlock funtion "ratchets" and it is not like it simply just disconnects. > >Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear >driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs >front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it >is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry >pavement, even if you have open diffs. Yes and no. Yes you will get drivelein bind on hard surface in 4x4 (unless it is a true full time system which I have in a old Jepp truck I still own) When your "locker" replacements are used this bind get servere!! > >The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only >arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You >would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you >have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or >gets traction suddenly after a spin. You are not wheel versed here I can see. I have plowed snow for over 20 years and the best straight axle plow truck I had was a J20 jeep with quadratrac that did not require it to be locked 95% of the time plowing so thje center diff took front to rear bind in turns and mitagated most of the front axle torque in turn (whipping of steering wheel at sharp turn angles under high toque loads). The best plow truck I have had is my 2000 K3500 that O bought new and at first I was very concerned as to how the IFS would pan out plowing but it handles like a drive and turns sharp with no torque steer/wheel whip at all because of CV's. You still do get a little front to back bind on a hard surface but other than that is is really smooth. It spoils you. > >IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost >transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the >slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). You are dreaming here. They are not transparent, you only learn to "live" with and accept its quirks as SOP or "normal". BTW your lockers of this type can be a heart attack on ice!!! >And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the >money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. It would be okay in back but if on a limted budget you want it up front if you plan a "locker" of some type up there, not your poor mans cluster fart spidergear replacements that do not play well there at all. Go ahead and put one it there and you will find out the hard way that things are not as they seem in theory in this area. > > >Bill Spiliotopoulos, >2006 TJ. > > >? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? >news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" >> <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>>when >>>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >>> >>>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). >> >> >> No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, >> two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on >> different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a >> turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering >> both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is >> one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or >> 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque >> steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less >> understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant >> velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist >> in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations >> across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 >> complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel >> drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline >> and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 >> percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set >> force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft >> too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances >> steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a >> selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making >> tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate >> a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, >> never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not >> turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. >> ----------------- >> TheSnoMan.com > ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:12:04 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get >power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the >front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If >they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent >them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, >as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the >driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the >locker to keep it locked. > I under stand fine, how things work in theory and reality varies a lot with thise spoder gear replacements. If they were that "great" they would have been standard in 4x4 years ago. They are not even a factroy option either even today and that tells you something too. >In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and >rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & >right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the >wheels want to differentiate. In a rear axle it is not as seem because under power it will tend not to unlock and skid tirs in a turn. BTW, the onlock funtion "ratchets" and it is not like it simply just disconnects. > >Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear >driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs >front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it >is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry >pavement, even if you have open diffs. Yes and no. Yes you will get drivelein bind on hard surface in 4x4 (unless it is a true full time system which I have in a old Jepp truck I still own) When your "locker" replacements are used this bind get servere!! > >The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only >arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You >would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you >have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or >gets traction suddenly after a spin. You are not wheel versed here I can see. I have plowed snow for over 20 years and the best straight axle plow truck I had was a J20 jeep with quadratrac that did not require it to be locked 95% of the time plowing so thje center diff took front to rear bind in turns and mitagated most of the front axle torque in turn (whipping of steering wheel at sharp turn angles under high toque loads). The best plow truck I have had is my 2000 K3500 that O bought new and at first I was very concerned as to how the IFS would pan out plowing but it handles like a drive and turns sharp with no torque steer/wheel whip at all because of CV's. You still do get a little front to back bind on a hard surface but other than that is is really smooth. It spoils you. > >IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost >transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the >slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). You are dreaming here. They are not transparent, you only learn to "live" with and accept its quirks as SOP or "normal". BTW your lockers of this type can be a heart attack on ice!!! >And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the >money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. It would be okay in back but if on a limted budget you want it up front if you plan a "locker" of some type up there, not your poor mans cluster fart spidergear replacements that do not play well there at all. Go ahead and put one it there and you will find out the hard way that things are not as they seem in theory in this area. > > >Bill Spiliotopoulos, >2006 TJ. > > >? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? >news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" >> <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>>when >>>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >>> >>>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). >> >> >> No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, >> two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on >> different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a >> turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering >> both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is >> one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or >> 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque >> steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less >> understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant >> velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist >> in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations >> across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 >> complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel >> drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline >> and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 >> percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set >> force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft >> too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances >> steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a >> selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making >> tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate >> a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, >> never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not >> turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. >> ----------------- >> TheSnoMan.com > ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
Re: Re: Dana 30 differences?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:12:04 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos"
<vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >I believe you have not understood that while in 2wd only the rear wheels get >power. The front drivehaft is disconected inside the transfer case, and the >front wheels are just rolling with the speed of the pavement under them. If >they what they can roll at different speeds, an auto locker wouldn't prevent >them from doing so. Thats because the twisting force would unlock it easily, >as there is no torque applied to the differential carrier from the >driveshaft, and so there is no force separating the two dog gears in the >locker to keep it locked. > I under stand fine, how things work in theory and reality varies a lot with thise spoder gear replacements. If they were that "great" they would have been standard in 4x4 years ago. They are not even a factroy option either even today and that tells you something too. >In 2wd, you could never have driveline wind up - neither between front and >rear axle (because the front driveshaft is disconected) nor between left & >right wheel in the front axle (because the auto locker will unlock when the >wheels want to differentiate. In a rear axle it is not as seem because under power it will tend not to unlock and skid tirs in a turn. BTW, the onlock funtion "ratchets" and it is not like it simply just disconnects. > >Now, when in 4x4 mode, when the transfer case locks the front and rear >driveshafts together, you may have driveline wind up even with open diffs >front and back, because the front axle turns faster in a turn. Thats why it >is not recomended to use part-time 4x4 (= front locked to rear) on dry >pavement, even if you have open diffs. Yes and no. Yes you will get drivelein bind on hard surface in 4x4 (unless it is a true full time system which I have in a old Jepp truck I still own) When your "locker" replacements are used this bind get servere!! > >The problem with front wheels not having constant velocity joints, will only >arise in 4x4, and will be more noticeable in tight turns. So who cares? You >would be using 4x4 offroad only in slow speeds in a very bad road, and you >have torque steer even with open diff if one of the front wheels spins, or >gets traction suddenly after a spin. You are not wheel versed here I can see. I have plowed snow for over 20 years and the best straight axle plow truck I had was a J20 jeep with quadratrac that did not require it to be locked 95% of the time plowing so thje center diff took front to rear bind in turns and mitagated most of the front axle torque in turn (whipping of steering wheel at sharp turn angles under high toque loads). The best plow truck I have had is my 2000 K3500 that O bought new and at first I was very concerned as to how the IFS would pan out plowing but it handles like a drive and turns sharp with no torque steer/wheel whip at all because of CV's. You still do get a little front to back bind on a hard surface but other than that is is really smooth. It spoils you. > >IMO, an autolocker is best suited in the front, where it would be almost >transparent while in 2wd (almost because you will notice it only by the >slight clicking when it locks / unlocks). You are dreaming here. They are not transparent, you only learn to "live" with and accept its quirks as SOP or "normal". BTW your lockers of this type can be a heart attack on ice!!! >And a selectable locker would be best suited in the back (if you have the >money) to be able to disengage it when not needed. It would be okay in back but if on a limted budget you want it up front if you plan a "locker" of some type up there, not your poor mans cluster fart spidergear replacements that do not play well there at all. Go ahead and put one it there and you will find out the hard way that things are not as they seem in theory in this area. > > >Bill Spiliotopoulos, >2006 TJ. > > >? "SnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> ?????? ??? ?????? >news:0nqe33dld24rsk3dk3gtpkgsna4l1qr1u6@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:34:55 +0300, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" >> <vspili@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>I think you are thinking about a spool. The auto-lockers, unlock fairly >>>easy when they are not carrying power to the wheels, which is the case >>>when >>>in 2wd mode, thus allowing the front wheels to differentiate. >>> >>>They are only visible in 4wd mode, and then only when the engine loads the >>>front drive-shaft (when applying power or when coasting). >> >> >> No, I am not thinking about a spool. When you turn your front axle, >> two things happen. First, the tires have different rolling radius on >> different paths so their axle shafts must turn as different RPMs in a >> turn to maintain ground contact without slipage while still powering >> both wheels. A Lock right or power trax cannot do this because it is >> one wheel drive with one wheel coast under light power or coasting or >> 2wd both tires driven at same speed slipping and or causing torque >> steer from bind this creates. The second problem is even less >> understood by many. This is the fact the Ujoint ARE NOT constant >> velocity when they are flexed or "bent". At high angles that can exist >> in the front axle when turning sharply it can cause speed variations >> across the joint of 30% or more as the axle rotates. (this occurs in 2 >> complete cycles per revolution and is the reason why front wheel >> drives have CV joints in them) This causes even more bind on driveline >> and has snapped more than one axle off because at times it can take 30 >> percent or more torque on axle shaft to power front wheel with a set >> force and at other times excert 30% more force on spindle hub shaft >> too. A differentail helps smooth this out torque wise and balances >> steering force too. A gear based LSD works wheel with this and a >> selectable locker plays well because you can unlock it when making >> tight turns in 4x4. The only place that I would even remotely tolerate >> a Lockright or Power trax (or simular device) would be in rear axle, >> never in front unless it is a mud runner or sand dragsterthat does not >> turn much like is needed on trails and daily driving. >> ----------------- >> TheSnoMan.com > ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
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