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Re: CB power
LOL...... No
How about "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known as, load mismatch or poor SWR" :-) Mike Romain wrote: > Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the > signal will be weaker than it's potential. > > Better? > ;-) > > Mike > > FrankW wrote: > >> Hi Mike >> To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal >> >> This site is really good. >> No garbage >> >> http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html >> >> >> >> Mike Romain wrote: >> >>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>> >>> An 'electrical' ground is a power path. >>> >>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. >>> >>> If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, >>> you will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic >>> according to all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing >>> and servicing transmitters for 9 years. >>> >>> Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and >>> Chrysler books. >>> >>> http://service.gm.com/techlineinfo/radio.html >>> http://www.fordemc.com/docs/download...adio_Guide.pdf >>> http://www.neons.org/neontsb/TSB/08/081698.htm >>> >>> When in doubt, RTFM eh. >>> >>> OK, so I just did and WOW, the person who wrote the Neon one also has >>> the electrical and reflective grounds mixed up in his head but at >>> least he refers to the TSB which is correct. >>> >>> 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage >>> in... GIGO eh. >>> >>> Mike >>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 >>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... >>> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! >>> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590 >>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> >>> >>> L. Ron Waddle wrote: >>> >>>> Nathan Otis wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. >>>>> I can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing >>>>> Eye, so here I am. >>>>> >>>>> When wiring power, I understand it's best to go to the source >>>>> (battery). What I don't know is... >>>>> >>>>> 1. Should BOTH the red AND black wire be connected to the battery @ >>>>> pos and neg terminals respectively? >>>>> >>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but >>>>> where? >>>>> >>>>> 2a. Should I ground in the engine compartment or... >>>>> >>>>> 2b. Is it best to make the ground wire as short as possible (i.e., >>>>> shorten the black wire to around a foot or two and ground in the cab)? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Since you are getting contradictory information, here is what I have >>>> gathered on the subject: >>>> >>>> 1. Power: Go straight to the battery. >>>> 2. Ground: >>>> The following are grounded on the typical radio: >>>> a) power ground >>>> b) antenna wire at radio (ground sheath) >>>> c) antenna wire at antenna (ground sheath) >>>> >>>> You want to prevent ground loops as much as possible. Thus the >>>> correct answer is that whatever you're attaching your ground to on >>>> the antenna end (usually a metal antenna mount bolted to your bumper >>>> or fender) should be what you attach the ground to on the CB end. >>>> Since the antenna is generally bolted to the body (or has a low-ohm >>>> AC path to ground through the magnetic mount attached to the body), >>>> that, then, is what you should attach your CB ground to. >>>> >>>> >>>> In short, the best ground is to attach your CB ground to one of the >>>> sheet metal screws that you use to attach your CB to the body of the >>>> Jeep. If you are not attaching the CB to the body of the Jeep, the >>>> ground should instead be attached to the body as close to the CB as >>>> possible. The goal is to provide a good ground path between the CB >>>> ground and the antenna ground for use as a ground plane without >>>> worrying about whether there is enough corrosion on the cable that >>>> grounds the body to the battery to affect its impedence and thus >>>> cause it to serve as an extension of the antenna (a.k.a. "ground >>>> loop"). >>>> >>>> Note that there are antenna setups which do not require a ground >>>> plane. These use a fixed-length cable with a specified impedence and >>>> an insulated ungrounded antenna. These generally, however, provide a >>>> poorer reception on any metal vehicle that has sufficient steel for >>>> a proper ground plane. Short of attaching a radial-element base >>>> station antenna to your Jeep (which uses the radial elements as the >>>> ground plane, but it'd make your Jeep kinda tall!), you cannot get a >>>> good ground plane with a "groundplane-free" mobile setup. My >>>> handi-talkie CB with the mini-whip does not get anywhere near as >>>> good of reception as my properly grounded Firestick antenna, even if >>>> I attach the auxiliary antenna and place it on top of my Jeep so >>>> it's as high as the Firestick on the back of my Jeep. And this is >>>> despite the fact that the actual guts of this handi-talkie are >>>> absolutely identical to the guts of my permanently-mounted CB (both >>>> are Cobra designs and utilize the exact same circuit board >>>> internally, all that differs is the surrounding packaging, one is an >>>> all-in-mike design with a power/antenna box under the dash and the >>>> other is a handi-talky with the power and antenna as part of the >>>> package). The ground plane of the Jeep thus empirically has proven >>>> to be quite a bit more effective at receiving signals than the >>>> ground-plane-less approach, and you shouldn't even think about a >>>> ground-plane-less approach for your antenna setup. >>>> >>>> -Elron >> >> |
Re: CB power
In English?
Just kidding ;-) My mirror mount antenna on my fiberglass CJ7 works great, the SWR meter says it matches exact when we went to tune it. I use the full length COAX in a loose coil stuffed in the side of the body shell wall. Mike FrankW wrote: > LOL...... No > How about > "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 > ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known > as, load mismatch or poor SWR" > :-) > Mike Romain wrote: > >> Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the >> signal will be weaker than it's potential. >> >> Better? >> ;-) >> >> Mike >> >> FrankW wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike >>> To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal >>> >>> This site is really good. >>> No garbage >>> >>> http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Mike Romain wrote: >>> >>>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>>> >>>> An 'electrical' ground is a power path. >>>> >>>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing >>>> else. <snip> |
Re: CB power
In English?
Just kidding ;-) My mirror mount antenna on my fiberglass CJ7 works great, the SWR meter says it matches exact when we went to tune it. I use the full length COAX in a loose coil stuffed in the side of the body shell wall. Mike FrankW wrote: > LOL...... No > How about > "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 > ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known > as, load mismatch or poor SWR" > :-) > Mike Romain wrote: > >> Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the >> signal will be weaker than it's potential. >> >> Better? >> ;-) >> >> Mike >> >> FrankW wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike >>> To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal >>> >>> This site is really good. >>> No garbage >>> >>> http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Mike Romain wrote: >>> >>>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>>> >>>> An 'electrical' ground is a power path. >>>> >>>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing >>>> else. <snip> |
Re: CB power
In English?
Just kidding ;-) My mirror mount antenna on my fiberglass CJ7 works great, the SWR meter says it matches exact when we went to tune it. I use the full length COAX in a loose coil stuffed in the side of the body shell wall. Mike FrankW wrote: > LOL...... No > How about > "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 > ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known > as, load mismatch or poor SWR" > :-) > Mike Romain wrote: > >> Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the >> signal will be weaker than it's potential. >> >> Better? >> ;-) >> >> Mike >> >> FrankW wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike >>> To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal >>> >>> This site is really good. >>> No garbage >>> >>> http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Mike Romain wrote: >>> >>>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>>> >>>> An 'electrical' ground is a power path. >>>> >>>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing >>>> else. <snip> |
Re: CB power
In English?
Just kidding ;-) My mirror mount antenna on my fiberglass CJ7 works great, the SWR meter says it matches exact when we went to tune it. I use the full length COAX in a loose coil stuffed in the side of the body shell wall. Mike FrankW wrote: > LOL...... No > How about > "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 > ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known > as, load mismatch or poor SWR" > :-) > Mike Romain wrote: > >> Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the >> signal will be weaker than it's potential. >> >> Better? >> ;-) >> >> Mike >> >> FrankW wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike >>> To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal >>> >>> This site is really good. >>> No garbage >>> >>> http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Mike Romain wrote: >>> >>>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>>> >>>> An 'electrical' ground is a power path. >>>> >>>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing >>>> else. <snip> |
Re: CB power
Mike Romain wrote:
> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > > An 'electrical' ground is a power path. > > The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. Well, except for the fact that all mobile antennas other than the "no ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. > If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you > will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to > all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing and servicing > transmitters for 9 years. > > Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and > Chrysler books. I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. > 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage > in... GIGO eh. Correct, which is why I always check these things out with more theoretical handbooks such as the ARRL handbook and with my own measurements. When the ARRL handbook, my own measurements, the antenna manufacturer's websites, the CB radio manufacturer's websites, and the 3rd party web sites all agree, it's probably accurate information. I have thus far installed my CB in my Jeep three different ways over the years. The first installation was into the cigarette lighter, this was when I didn't have time to do it right because I had just purchased the Jeep and was going on a trip. This worked fine. The next trip, I still hadn't had time to install the radio properly, so I hooked the power wire into a fuse in the fuse box and the ground wire to a screw into the body. This worked, but with significant noise from the electronics hooked to the fuse box. I finally got around to installing the radio properly, and ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the battery and placed an auxilliary fuse block under the driver's dash for my various radios with a very short wire from the radio to the fuse block (the 12 gauge wire has its own 20 amp fuse where it attaches to the battery). A 12 gauge wire with a 5 watt draw basically has no capacitance or resistance in case you're wondering and thus does not serve as an antenna nor pick up RF noise, thus it's okay to run it across the firewall to get to the driver's side. I hooked the ground to the body with the same screw used to attach the antenna junction box to the body (this is the all-in-handset radio). The result is significantly reduced RF noise, I can hear a very little hum in the background that goes up and down with engine RPM but it is inaudible when someone is talking. My SWR settings and tests with a second person holding the handy talky show that my antenna setup (a Firestick) is quite good too and that my radio has no significant distortion on transmit. Indeed, the only significant RF noise that I pick up is from high voltage power lines, which create induced RF noise in pretty much everything in the Jeep, but that's something that a simple filter will not do anything about because most of that noise is getting picked up by the antenna, not by the wiring under my dash. So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the body. So that ground path then becomes the ground path that every power-using accessory in the cab of the Jeep will use to send its stuff back to the battery. This is Bad News. With my setup, because the coax ground (both ends - radio and antenna) and the radio ground all go to the same ground (the body) grounding the radio to the body creates no risk of fire. My measurements with the VOM show that the body ground on my Jeep is excellent at all points measured. If your Jeep on the other hand is a rust bucket you may need to do extra work to get a good ground for everything that needs a good ground -- both ends of the coax, the frame of the radio, and the radio itself. Now, has this affected the electronics of my Jeep in any way? Nope. 5 watts of power simply does not have the juice to do anything to the electronics in a Jeep. You get more induced current just by passing under a high tension power line. In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this clarifies things then. -Elron |
Re: CB power
Mike Romain wrote:
> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > > An 'electrical' ground is a power path. > > The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. Well, except for the fact that all mobile antennas other than the "no ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. > If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you > will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to > all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing and servicing > transmitters for 9 years. > > Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and > Chrysler books. I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. > 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage > in... GIGO eh. Correct, which is why I always check these things out with more theoretical handbooks such as the ARRL handbook and with my own measurements. When the ARRL handbook, my own measurements, the antenna manufacturer's websites, the CB radio manufacturer's websites, and the 3rd party web sites all agree, it's probably accurate information. I have thus far installed my CB in my Jeep three different ways over the years. The first installation was into the cigarette lighter, this was when I didn't have time to do it right because I had just purchased the Jeep and was going on a trip. This worked fine. The next trip, I still hadn't had time to install the radio properly, so I hooked the power wire into a fuse in the fuse box and the ground wire to a screw into the body. This worked, but with significant noise from the electronics hooked to the fuse box. I finally got around to installing the radio properly, and ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the battery and placed an auxilliary fuse block under the driver's dash for my various radios with a very short wire from the radio to the fuse block (the 12 gauge wire has its own 20 amp fuse where it attaches to the battery). A 12 gauge wire with a 5 watt draw basically has no capacitance or resistance in case you're wondering and thus does not serve as an antenna nor pick up RF noise, thus it's okay to run it across the firewall to get to the driver's side. I hooked the ground to the body with the same screw used to attach the antenna junction box to the body (this is the all-in-handset radio). The result is significantly reduced RF noise, I can hear a very little hum in the background that goes up and down with engine RPM but it is inaudible when someone is talking. My SWR settings and tests with a second person holding the handy talky show that my antenna setup (a Firestick) is quite good too and that my radio has no significant distortion on transmit. Indeed, the only significant RF noise that I pick up is from high voltage power lines, which create induced RF noise in pretty much everything in the Jeep, but that's something that a simple filter will not do anything about because most of that noise is getting picked up by the antenna, not by the wiring under my dash. So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the body. So that ground path then becomes the ground path that every power-using accessory in the cab of the Jeep will use to send its stuff back to the battery. This is Bad News. With my setup, because the coax ground (both ends - radio and antenna) and the radio ground all go to the same ground (the body) grounding the radio to the body creates no risk of fire. My measurements with the VOM show that the body ground on my Jeep is excellent at all points measured. If your Jeep on the other hand is a rust bucket you may need to do extra work to get a good ground for everything that needs a good ground -- both ends of the coax, the frame of the radio, and the radio itself. Now, has this affected the electronics of my Jeep in any way? Nope. 5 watts of power simply does not have the juice to do anything to the electronics in a Jeep. You get more induced current just by passing under a high tension power line. In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this clarifies things then. -Elron |
Re: CB power
Mike Romain wrote:
> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > > An 'electrical' ground is a power path. > > The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. Well, except for the fact that all mobile antennas other than the "no ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. > If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you > will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to > all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing and servicing > transmitters for 9 years. > > Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and > Chrysler books. I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. > 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage > in... GIGO eh. Correct, which is why I always check these things out with more theoretical handbooks such as the ARRL handbook and with my own measurements. When the ARRL handbook, my own measurements, the antenna manufacturer's websites, the CB radio manufacturer's websites, and the 3rd party web sites all agree, it's probably accurate information. I have thus far installed my CB in my Jeep three different ways over the years. The first installation was into the cigarette lighter, this was when I didn't have time to do it right because I had just purchased the Jeep and was going on a trip. This worked fine. The next trip, I still hadn't had time to install the radio properly, so I hooked the power wire into a fuse in the fuse box and the ground wire to a screw into the body. This worked, but with significant noise from the electronics hooked to the fuse box. I finally got around to installing the radio properly, and ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the battery and placed an auxilliary fuse block under the driver's dash for my various radios with a very short wire from the radio to the fuse block (the 12 gauge wire has its own 20 amp fuse where it attaches to the battery). A 12 gauge wire with a 5 watt draw basically has no capacitance or resistance in case you're wondering and thus does not serve as an antenna nor pick up RF noise, thus it's okay to run it across the firewall to get to the driver's side. I hooked the ground to the body with the same screw used to attach the antenna junction box to the body (this is the all-in-handset radio). The result is significantly reduced RF noise, I can hear a very little hum in the background that goes up and down with engine RPM but it is inaudible when someone is talking. My SWR settings and tests with a second person holding the handy talky show that my antenna setup (a Firestick) is quite good too and that my radio has no significant distortion on transmit. Indeed, the only significant RF noise that I pick up is from high voltage power lines, which create induced RF noise in pretty much everything in the Jeep, but that's something that a simple filter will not do anything about because most of that noise is getting picked up by the antenna, not by the wiring under my dash. So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the body. So that ground path then becomes the ground path that every power-using accessory in the cab of the Jeep will use to send its stuff back to the battery. This is Bad News. With my setup, because the coax ground (both ends - radio and antenna) and the radio ground all go to the same ground (the body) grounding the radio to the body creates no risk of fire. My measurements with the VOM show that the body ground on my Jeep is excellent at all points measured. If your Jeep on the other hand is a rust bucket you may need to do extra work to get a good ground for everything that needs a good ground -- both ends of the coax, the frame of the radio, and the radio itself. Now, has this affected the electronics of my Jeep in any way? Nope. 5 watts of power simply does not have the juice to do anything to the electronics in a Jeep. You get more induced current just by passing under a high tension power line. In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this clarifies things then. -Elron |
Re: CB power
Mike Romain wrote:
> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > > An 'electrical' ground is a power path. > > The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. Well, except for the fact that all mobile antennas other than the "no ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. > If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you > will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to > all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing and servicing > transmitters for 9 years. > > Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and > Chrysler books. I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. > 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage > in... GIGO eh. Correct, which is why I always check these things out with more theoretical handbooks such as the ARRL handbook and with my own measurements. When the ARRL handbook, my own measurements, the antenna manufacturer's websites, the CB radio manufacturer's websites, and the 3rd party web sites all agree, it's probably accurate information. I have thus far installed my CB in my Jeep three different ways over the years. The first installation was into the cigarette lighter, this was when I didn't have time to do it right because I had just purchased the Jeep and was going on a trip. This worked fine. The next trip, I still hadn't had time to install the radio properly, so I hooked the power wire into a fuse in the fuse box and the ground wire to a screw into the body. This worked, but with significant noise from the electronics hooked to the fuse box. I finally got around to installing the radio properly, and ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the battery and placed an auxilliary fuse block under the driver's dash for my various radios with a very short wire from the radio to the fuse block (the 12 gauge wire has its own 20 amp fuse where it attaches to the battery). A 12 gauge wire with a 5 watt draw basically has no capacitance or resistance in case you're wondering and thus does not serve as an antenna nor pick up RF noise, thus it's okay to run it across the firewall to get to the driver's side. I hooked the ground to the body with the same screw used to attach the antenna junction box to the body (this is the all-in-handset radio). The result is significantly reduced RF noise, I can hear a very little hum in the background that goes up and down with engine RPM but it is inaudible when someone is talking. My SWR settings and tests with a second person holding the handy talky show that my antenna setup (a Firestick) is quite good too and that my radio has no significant distortion on transmit. Indeed, the only significant RF noise that I pick up is from high voltage power lines, which create induced RF noise in pretty much everything in the Jeep, but that's something that a simple filter will not do anything about because most of that noise is getting picked up by the antenna, not by the wiring under my dash. So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the body. So that ground path then becomes the ground path that every power-using accessory in the cab of the Jeep will use to send its stuff back to the battery. This is Bad News. With my setup, because the coax ground (both ends - radio and antenna) and the radio ground all go to the same ground (the body) grounding the radio to the body creates no risk of fire. My measurements with the VOM show that the body ground on my Jeep is excellent at all points measured. If your Jeep on the other hand is a rust bucket you may need to do extra work to get a good ground for everything that needs a good ground -- both ends of the coax, the frame of the radio, and the radio itself. Now, has this affected the electronics of my Jeep in any way? Nope. 5 watts of power simply does not have the juice to do anything to the electronics in a Jeep. You get more induced current just by passing under a high tension power line. In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this clarifies things then. -Elron |
Re: CB power
"L. Ron Waddle" <penguincathedral@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read > my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio > manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford > handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could > fit in the palm of my hand. But what GM and Ford know about their warranties is not only correct, it's oftem final and non-negotiable as many have found out. I'd pay attention to them if I were you... -- XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html |
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