Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
paint code also appears there.


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:

> well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> was 1E. Thanks again!
>
> -CJ
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
>>
>> [quote]-----------------------------
>> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
>> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
>> This is the Paint Code.
>> [unquot]----------------------------
>>
>> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
>> Brown Metallic.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
>>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
>>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
>>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
>>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
>>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
>>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
>>>
>>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
>>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
>>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
>>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
>>>
>>> -CJ
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
>> whips....r"
>> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>
>

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
well.

Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.


Lee Ayrton wrote:
> Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> paint code also appears there.
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
>
> > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > was 1E. Thanks again!
> >
> > -CJ
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> >>
> >> [quote]-----------------------------
> >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> >> This is the Paint Code.
> >> [unquot]----------------------------
> >>
> >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> >> Brown Metallic.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> >>>
> >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> >>>
> >>> -CJ
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> >> whips....r"
> >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
well.

Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.


Lee Ayrton wrote:
> Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> paint code also appears there.
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
>
> > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > was 1E. Thanks again!
> >
> > -CJ
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> >>
> >> [quote]-----------------------------
> >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> >> This is the Paint Code.
> >> [unquot]----------------------------
> >>
> >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> >> Brown Metallic.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> >>>
> >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> >>>
> >>> -CJ
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> >> whips....r"
> >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
well.

Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.


Lee Ayrton wrote:
> Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> paint code also appears there.
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
>
> > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > was 1E. Thanks again!
> >
> > -CJ
> >
> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> >>
> >> [quote]-----------------------------
> >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> >> This is the Paint Code.
> >> [unquot]----------------------------
> >>
> >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> >> Brown Metallic.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> >>>
> >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> >>>
> >>> -CJ
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> >> whips....r"
> >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> >
> >
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Ummm, just so you know, you just turned your Jeep into a serious 'heat
score' by drilling those rivets out.... They are a special shape and
signify 'original' instead of replacements which signify 'stolen'. Most
cops are very aware of this so you better have all the right paperwork
with you.

That VIN tag sits on a plate that sits behind the wiper motor and you
just swap the whole plate out. I know some areas have motor vehicle
branches that can reinstall that VIN using the proper rivets. I was
also told that the black market price for the rivets was around $100.00
each.

That color chart is strange....

I checked my CJ7 out and mine was 'apparently' charcoal metallic. I
have had all of my jeep apart and most parts down to bare metal and the
only black on it was the dash panel. The sucker was a 'barbie' Jeep
according to the paint I found. Hot purple trimmed with hot pink, then
gray, then metallic blue/green....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

cjarnesen wrote:
>
> I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
> newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
> DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
> see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
> I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
> VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
> mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
> rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
> well.
>
> Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
> pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> > is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> > curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> > the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> > paint code also appears there.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >
> > > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > > was 1E. Thanks again!
> > >
> > > -CJ
> > >
> > > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> > >>
> > >> [quote]-----------------------------
> > >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> > >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> > >> This is the Paint Code.
> > >> [unquot]----------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> > >> Brown Metallic.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> > >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> > >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> > >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> > >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> > >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> > >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> > >>>
> > >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> > >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> > >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> > >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> > >>>
> > >>> -CJ
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > >> whips....r"
> > >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > whips....r"
> > R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Ummm, just so you know, you just turned your Jeep into a serious 'heat
score' by drilling those rivets out.... They are a special shape and
signify 'original' instead of replacements which signify 'stolen'. Most
cops are very aware of this so you better have all the right paperwork
with you.

That VIN tag sits on a plate that sits behind the wiper motor and you
just swap the whole plate out. I know some areas have motor vehicle
branches that can reinstall that VIN using the proper rivets. I was
also told that the black market price for the rivets was around $100.00
each.

That color chart is strange....

I checked my CJ7 out and mine was 'apparently' charcoal metallic. I
have had all of my jeep apart and most parts down to bare metal and the
only black on it was the dash panel. The sucker was a 'barbie' Jeep
according to the paint I found. Hot purple trimmed with hot pink, then
gray, then metallic blue/green....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

cjarnesen wrote:
>
> I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
> newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
> DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
> see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
> I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
> VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
> mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
> rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
> well.
>
> Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
> pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> > is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> > curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> > the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> > paint code also appears there.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >
> > > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > > was 1E. Thanks again!
> > >
> > > -CJ
> > >
> > > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> > >>
> > >> [quote]-----------------------------
> > >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> > >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> > >> This is the Paint Code.
> > >> [unquot]----------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> > >> Brown Metallic.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> > >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> > >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> > >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> > >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> > >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> > >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> > >>>
> > >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> > >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> > >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> > >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> > >>>
> > >>> -CJ
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > >> whips....r"
> > >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > whips....r"
> > R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Ummm, just so you know, you just turned your Jeep into a serious 'heat
score' by drilling those rivets out.... They are a special shape and
signify 'original' instead of replacements which signify 'stolen'. Most
cops are very aware of this so you better have all the right paperwork
with you.

That VIN tag sits on a plate that sits behind the wiper motor and you
just swap the whole plate out. I know some areas have motor vehicle
branches that can reinstall that VIN using the proper rivets. I was
also told that the black market price for the rivets was around $100.00
each.

That color chart is strange....

I checked my CJ7 out and mine was 'apparently' charcoal metallic. I
have had all of my jeep apart and most parts down to bare metal and the
only black on it was the dash panel. The sucker was a 'barbie' Jeep
according to the paint I found. Hot purple trimmed with hot pink, then
gray, then metallic blue/green....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

cjarnesen wrote:
>
> I'll have to check. I have some stickers there, but they are all
> newer. My Jeep had an engine swap done in 1995. So all the required
> DMV emissions stuff is there on the tub under the door. I'll look to
> see if there is an original sticker, but I don't remember seeing one.
> I have a cover over the cab right now so I can't look. One place my
> VIN was, was on the windshield frame riveted under the wiper motor
> mount. Because I'm replacing my windshield, I had to drill out the
> rivets to keep my VIN plate. I know its on the plate in the engine as
> well.
>
> Just went and got my glass for the new frame. The new frame is due
> pretty soon. Can't wait to paint it and get my jeep all fixed back up.
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > Glad to help, and thanks for letting us know how you made out. My `79 CJ
> > is in storage for the winter so I can't look but, just out of idle
> > curiosity, did Jeep still put a VIN/nomenclature/tire pressure sticker on
> > the dash or body tub near the driver seat by `81? I'm wondering if the
> > paint code also appears there.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> >
> > > well, success. 1E it is, good guess lee. I braved the storm, and
> > > years of engine bay grease to fine the tag under the near MC. There it
> > > was 1E. Thanks again!
> > >
> > > -CJ
> > >
> > > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> http://www.cjoffroad.com/writeup.asp?WU_ID=30&noAdd=1
> > >>
> > >> [quote]-----------------------------
> > >> On your VIN tag under your hood on the firewall (below the brake master
> > >> cylinder) there is a two digit number on the second row, in the middle.
> > >> This is the Paint Code.
> > >> [unquot]----------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From the way your picture appears on my monitor, I'm guessing "1E" Copper
> > >> Brown Metallic.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, cjarnesen wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hey all. I've been on an internet journey trying to find the proper
> > >>> paint color for my 1981 CJ7. I busted the windshield and windshield
> > >>> frame last trip to Hollister, so now its time to paint the new
> > >>> windshield frame as well as my hood. The paint is stock. It is a
> > >>> burgundy orange color. My friends call it rust orange. Any idea as to
> > >>> the color? The link below is a pic, it might help.
> > >>> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=IMG_2073.jpg
> > >>>
> > >>> I've been having trouble locating the paint code via where it is
> > >>> supposed to be. Is it in the vin?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the help, and any tips on where to get the paint. I have a
> > >>> spray gun and compressor, so I should be set there. Also need to make
> > >>> sure to get the proper primer. Thank you!
> > >>>
> > >>> -CJ
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > >> whips....r"
> > >> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> > whips....r"
> > R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Hi Lee,
I'm fairly sure Daimler feels no responsibility for Real Jeeps made
by American Motors Corp.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> Do build sheet records go back that far?

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Hi Lee,
I'm fairly sure Daimler feels no responsibility for Real Jeeps made
by American Motors Corp.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> Do build sheet records go back that far?

Re: 1981 CJ-7 Paint
 

Hi Lee,
I'm fairly sure Daimler feels no responsibility for Real Jeeps made
by American Motors Corp.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> Do build sheet records go back that far?